# Incorruptible (Grey Knight-Audio Drama)



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

*The Story*:
_After their mission in the Sanctus Reach, Grey Knights Justicar Styer and his squad are assigned to locate a lost Grey Knights vessel, the Purifier ship Blade of Purity. Boarding the ship, they find evidence of battle and possible Chaos corruption. Has the impossible happened and Purifiers have fallen to the thrall of the Ruinous Powers? Or is something else stalking the halls of the Blade of Purity?_
*Listen to it because*:
_Horror stalks the corridors of a seemingly deserted battleship in this new audio from David Annandale. Has the unthinkable happened? A Grey Knight, a Purifier no less, turned against his own and embraced Chaos? Upon the Blade of Purity, it looks as if just that has happened. What else could explain the vessel's mysterious disappearance, and the loss of all its crew?_

Did Black Library really go that way huh? I bet the plottwist is that they weren't corrupt.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Obvious plot twist is obvious.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Listened to it, actually quite good. Here's the plot twist;




The Knights find out that while there are Chaos forces aboard the Blade of Purity, the ship actually fell to a nest of Genestealers, the Chaos cultists simply boarded the ship when they found it floating dead in space. The Genestealers psychic might overwhelmed the leading Purifier, Saydon, and forced him to do their bidding. Justicar Styre is forced to mercy kill him as his mind has been compromised by the presence of the Hive Mind.




LotN


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Oh that just feels wrong. They can't be corrupted by Chaos but xenos psychic might is A-ok?


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Aye, I'm with Malus. I call BS


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Annandales firmly in the 'get in the bin' pile.

After listening to Censure, although his Sallies are dogshit, Kymes Aeonid Thiel was cool as fuck (although the other UM captain fell into the usual trap of mcneils writing that to show how super special snowflake Thiel was, the captain was completely devoid of capability apart from shooting well), so he has some redemption.

This? Even the VA's couldn't make it sound interesting.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Grey Knights........overwhelmed by Genestealers. Fuck this shit.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Grey Knights........overwhelmed by Genestealers. Fuck this shit.


Roughly around five-ten Grey Knights overwhelmed by somewhere around sixty-eighty Genestealers. All but one of them them were killed and only that one survivor was mentally controlled via the entire nest combining their psychic might, and only enough to make him move like a jerky marionette. When Seydon fought under their influence he lacked any skill and was actually easy to defeat, Styre notes that his fighting was so basic that the Justicar could have held him off indefinitely without any worries for his own safety, because Seydon was still resisting the influence of the Hive Mind.


LotN


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The Ultramarines Fiirst Company called. Asking for the GK's man cards back.

Absolute horseshit.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Grey Knights........overwhelmed by Genestealers. Fuck this shit.


Why is this such a stretch? 

GKs are designed, conditioned and trained to resist and combat the influence of all things Chaos. It is the purity of their souls more than their psychic might that makes them so good at what they do. So if they come up against an immensely powerful non-chaos, xenos psyker like a patriarch or broodlord, or whatever they're called now, who's to say they couldn't be defeated relatively easily? Never mind that genestealers are hard as nails even without a broodlord.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Defeated aye, but controlled? That's bollocks. If that's the case, why don't Genestealers control Marneus Calgar or someone else. You know, someone whose mental fortitude isn't supposed to be legendary and part of an order which is composed of the most powerful and best train psykers the Imperium can muster. It's a cheap gimmick that makes a mess of the Grey Knights just to push a few more copies of some crappy ass audio drama. 

Besides, it's not like it's a whole hive fleet. It's just a nest of Genestealers for fucks sake. You know, the stuff that regular marines face down regularly and none of their dumb asses get possessed. Total bollocks!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

See above. And pretty much any other time in 40k history when space marines encounter genestealers. Whereas in this instance, the Space Marines cannot defeat a fairly standard sized brood, as a result of "plot reasons". 

http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/because-plot-is-not-a-good-enough-reason/

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForgottenPhlebotinum


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Why is this such a stretch?
> 
> GKs are designed, conditioned and trained to resist and combat the influence of all things Chaos. It is the purity of their souls more than their psychic might that makes them so good at what they do. So if they come up against an immensely powerful non-chaos, xenos psyker like a patriarch or broodlord, or whatever they're called now, who's to say they couldn't be defeated relatively easily? Never mind that genestealers are hard as nails even without a broodlord.


GK's are the ultimate weapon. They have no physical equals, only the denizens of the Warp should ever pose a threat to them. They're mini-Emperor's literally.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> GK's are the ultimate weapon. They have no physical equals, only the denizens of the Warp should ever pose a threat to them. They're mini-Emperor's literally.


Not really. They are the ultimate demon killers, which is down to their mental discipline and fortitude, and psychic abilities, but there's no evidence that they are any bigger or badder than any other chapter in any other respect beyond that.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

That's 3rd edition talking, mate. They are the Navy SEALS of the Space Marines, harder better faster stronger, and are used in operations involving the Crons, Eldar, and used against unknown foes.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Not really. They are the ultimate demon killers, which is down to their mental discipline and fortitude, and psychic abilities, but there's no evidence that they are any bigger or badder than any other chapter in any other respect beyond that.


how have you been a poster here for so long and still think that despite the hundreds of threads discussing this very issue?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah I'm with the others, this is just retarded imo. As has been pointed out, if Grey Knights can be overcome by a brood of genestealers, then how have astartes all over the shop not been taken over by them? Yeah they are uber against deamons, but they are still immensely powerful psykers in all other respects as well.

Not buying it, the plot or the audio.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> how have you been a poster here for so long and still think that despite the hundreds of threads discussing this very issue?


None of them have proved that GKs are in any way physically superior to any other brand of SM.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Even if we assume that is true, for argument's sake, name one other instance when a space marine psyker is possessed by a comparatively small brood of Genestealers (really, in 'nid terms, 60 Genestealers isn't that much). Better yet, when have the Tyranids ever shown that they can control Space Marines by psychic might?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> None of them have proved that GKs are in any way physically superior to any other brand of SM.


I agree with KF. There is no actual proof that a Grey Knight is physically stronger or faster or more endurable than a regular Astartes.



Deus Mortis said:


> Even if we assume that is true, for argument's sake, name one other instance when a space marine psyker is possessed by a comparatively small brood of Genestealers (really, in 'nid terms, 60 Genestealers isn't that much). Better yet, when have the Tyranids ever shown that they can control Space Marines by psychic might?


Not a Space Marine but the Tyranids Codex has shown that the Shadow of the Hive Mind can influence psykers, driving them crazy and forcing them to do things. And previous lore has shown that Genestealers can have a hypnotic influence on people. I don't find it far-fetched that an entire nest concentrating it's strength could dominate one individual that, despite his inevitable badassery against Daemons and the like, has never been trained to fight Tyranids and as such would be unprepared for their own special kind of mind-rape. (As far as I know there is no actual proof that the Grey Knights train to fight against the regular denizens of the galaxy, they are likely told what they are but I highly doubt that the 666th Chapter would waste valuable time practicing against things that they are not really meant to be fighting.)


LotN


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Surely GK would be *worse* at fighting the Tyranids than other Space Marines, seeing as how the whole Chapter is affected by the Shadow in the Warp rather than just the Librarius?


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

I'm not saying that the Tyranids couldn't eat Grey Knights. As you say, the shadow in the warp would affect the whole chapter. However, the shadow in the warp is describes as a phenomenon that blocks out the effects of the warp, not possesses people. 

Plus there is nothing in the existing lore that even remotely suggests that Tyranids can control psykers by just existing, especially not the Librarians of the Astartes given that those are the best trained psykers in the Imperium, bar maybe some members of the inquisition, and of those the Grey Knights are the best trained of those psykers.

Edit: Fine, so we have a few scattered reports of Genestealers being able to hypnotise people and some psykers going mad. You know what also supposedly does that? The Warp. And most Space
Marines don't give a single solitary fuck, they continue on and keep fighting, because that's what they are all trained to do. Is there any evidence that suggests that the Tyranids have ever been able to exert such control over any other Astartes? I don't think so, to my knowledge.

Plus plus, the shadow in the warp is something that is proportional to the size of the invading tyranid force. I find it hard to believe that a relatively small brood of Genestealers would be able to cast such a powerful shadow that it blocks out the imperium's finest psychic minds.

If the Tyranids overwhelm them with numbers fine. I'm not claiming that Grey Knights are invincible, but the method this story has chosen to orchestrate their defeat is moronic and infuriating.

Also edit: I love how people are like "oh they'd aren't trained to fight Tyranids!". They're still mother-fucking Space Marines! They are still superhuman badasses that are worth while battalions of mortal soldiers. Just because they specialise in fighting chaos folks doesn't make them a hoard of useless gibbons when they face other foes. They still have the best armour and weapons the Imperium can give. They still have the best training and are counted as the most powerful psykers the imperium can offer. They shouldn't be getting their asses handed to them and mind controlled by a petty brood of Genestealers, the likes of which other 'normal' marines clear from space hulks at a fairly regular rate. It reeks of poor writing and laziness and gimping one faction just to push another pointless, poorly conceived audio drama.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Shadow in the Warp effect only happens when an entire swarm is on the move, it doesn't come into effect from a nest/few Tyranids

in addition I would argue the GK would make some of the best Tyranid/xenos fighters due to their ability to access any if not all information/tactics the Imperium has on alien races and their insane training methods to combat Daemons (arguably physically faster and stronger than Tyranids) which would make them excel at fighting aliens.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

From most books I really get the impression that the GK are above par compared to astartes whos genetic father is a primarch, the fact that it results from the emperor would suggest this. For example in Courage and Honour I think it was, being able to best a GK was considered a proof of being cursed. As such I also find it lame that they can be bested by a bunch of genestealers,


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Deus Mortis said:


> Is there any evidence that suggests that the Tyranids have ever been able to exert such control over any other Astartes? I don't think so, to my knowledge.


That doesn't make it impossible. Or that it could never happen.



Deus Mortis said:


> Plus plus, the shadow in the warp is something that is proportional to the size of the invading tyranid force. I find it hard to believe that a relatively small brood of Genestealers would be able to cast such a powerful shadow that it blocks out the Imperium's finest psychic minds.


ONE of the Imperium's finest. Just the one. The others were all killed, likely because the nest realized they would only be able to dominate one.



Deus Mortis said:


> Also edit: I love how people are like "oh they'd aren't trained to fight Tyranids!". They're still mother-fucking Space Marines! They are still superhuman badasses that are worth while battalions of mortal soldiers. Just because they specialise in fighting chaos folks doesn't make them a hoard of useless gibbons when they face other foes. They still have the best armour and weapons the Imperium can give. They still have the best training and are counted as the most powerful psykers the imperium can offer. They shouldn't be getting their asses handed to them and mind controlled by a petty brood of Genestealers, the likes of which other 'normal' marines clear from space hulks at a fairly regular rate. It reeks of poor writing and laziness and gimping one faction just to push another pointless, poorly conceived audio drama.


I never said they weren't, or that it would. As for the best armour and weapons... well, not totally. Yes Nemesis Weapons and Aegis Armour are some of the Imperium's best work, but they are designed to be effective against Daemons. The warding in Nemesis Weaponry and Aegis Armour would be useless against Orks or Necrons because it wasn't meant to be used against them. In a fight against enemies that aren't affiliated with Chaos, a Grey Knight in my opinion would be equal to a regular Space Marine because his speciality equipment wouldn't be effective against the particular foe he is fighting, and while they are all psykers, that doesn't mean every single one is an expert. Some Grey Knights have just enough psychic power to pass muster and no more, there is a reason they still maintain the Librarian rank despite the fact that every GK is a psyker. And I never said they got their asses handed to them, they were taken by complete surprise and were forced to fight the Genestealers inside the worst possible environment to fight them in; a ship. And the Grey Knights aboard were few in number, probably less than ten. Ten Grey Knights against a horde of Genestealers that caught them completely off-guard and used their psychic might to take the GK's best fighter out of the game. I can believe that.

It might be worth downloading this, legally or whatever, for yourselves. My description may be inaccurate, I was a bit distracted during the final few minutes of the audio.


LotN


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

People are forgetting just how powerful genestealers are compared to you average nid. They are designed to advance years ahead of a hive fleet and subvert entire star systems so there is little to no resistance when the fleet eventually arrives. It is not just scattered reports of them controlling people, they do it everywhere they go. 

Sure, the mental strength of a GK should prove a good defence against it, but as LotN said, it only takes one. 

As for being worse at fighting nids than any other chapter, I disagree with this. They may not be physically superior to your average SM, but I would still put them on a par with any chapter's first company, all armed with power weapons and storm bolters. Wether or not they specifically train to fight nids, they are still each a mighty warrior with excellent war gear.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

LotN, try to convince people all you want - but the fact that it has rubbed so many people up the wrong way shows how fucking ridiculous it sounds. 

And it is pretty much an unstated rule that in 40k fluff, psykers are just the fucking shit at what they do, short of Deus Ex Machina/McGuffins. 

As I also said before. Grey Knights, the Ultramarines called. You're all fucking pussies


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> People are forgetting just how powerful genestealers are compared to you average nid. They are designed to advance years ahead of a hive fleet and subvert entire star systems so there is little to no resistance when the fleet eventually arrives. It is not just scattered reports of them controlling people, they do it everywhere they go.


Genestealers are able to controll people, as long as they either have infected them or those people are weak-willed (not a word you use to describe a space marine.)


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> As for being worse at fighting nids than any other chapter, I disagree with this. They may not be physically superior to your average SM, but I would still put them on a par with any chapter's first company, all armed with power weapons and storm bolters. Whether or not they specifically train to fight nids, they are still each a mighty warrior with excellent war gear.


That isn't what I meant. What I mean is that against any foe other than Chaos, all the advantages that the Grey Knights normally enjoy; their very presence hurting the enemy, their weapons being specifically designed to hurt that one enemy more than any other, the use of true names and protections against sorcery, aren't worth much against the Orks, Necrons and Tyranids. I agree that any Brotherhood of the Grey Knights is very likely equal to a normal Chapter's First Company, but the special abilities and secret knowledge of the Grey Knights is all designed to be used against Chaos, not xenos. Therefore what advantages they would have in the pursuit of their normal duties, they wouldn't have in a fight against the Nids.



Vaz said:


> LotN, try to convince people all you want - but the fact that it has rubbed so many people up the wrong way shows how fucking ridiculous it sounds.


Not trying to convince anyone. Just stating what I think.


LotN


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> Yes Nemesis Weapons and Aegis Armour are some of the Imperium's best work, but they are designed to be effective against Daemons.
> LotN


What I understood from The Ahriman series is that force weapons basically allow one to poor its will in the weapon given that GK are more often than not, powerfull psykers this would suggest a powerful weapon against foes from both the immaterium and the material world, this together with the fact that they are more powerful than than 'average' astartes makes it difficult to position,
for example if you read deathstorm there BA face scores of genestealers, the captain is able to ward of a psychic attack from the broodlord. Also from death of integrity I cannot recall genestealers having such a devastating impact.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> That isn't what I meant. What I mean is that against any foe other than Chaos, all the advantages that the Grey Knights normally enjoy; their very presence hurting the enemy, their weapons being specifically designed to hurt that one enemy more than any other, the use of true names and protections against sorcery, aren't worth much against the Orks, Necrons and Tyranids. I agree that any Brotherhood of the Grey Knights is very likely equal to a normal Chapter's First Company, but the special abilities and secret knowledge of the Grey Knights is all designed to be used against Chaos, not xenos. Therefore what advantages they would have in the pursuit of their normal duties, they wouldn't have in a fight against the Nids.
> 
> 
> Not trying to convince anyone. Just stating what I think.
> ...


The Orks are a psychic race, not unlike the Tyranids in that individually they give out a weak presence (minus shamans, zoanthropes) but in groups the psychic levels increase exponentially. I could easily see the GK's making the Orks fight at their least best by their mere presence or focusing their powers to do so.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> People are forgetting just how powerful genestealers are compared to you average nid. They are designed to advance years ahead of a hive fleet and subvert entire star systems so there is little to no resistance when the fleet eventually arrives. It is not just scattered reports of them controlling people, they do it everywhere they go.
> 
> Sure, the mental strength of a GK should prove a good defence against it, but as LotN said, it only takes one.
> 
> As for being worse at fighting nids than any other chapter, I disagree with this. They may not be physically superior to your average SM, but I would still put them on a par with any chapter's first company, all armed with power weapons and storm bolters. Wether or not they specifically train to fight nids, they are still each a mighty warrior with excellent war gear.


Grey Knights were born to kill the most physically powerful enemy in the known WH40k universe, Daemons, since they don't give a fuck about physics and move insanely fast and hit like trucks. How would this make them on par with other chapters?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Grey Knights were born to kill the most physically powerful enemy in the known WH40k universe, Daemons, since they don't give a fuck about physics and move insanely fast and hit like trucks. How would this make them on par with other chapters?


Can you give one citation of them being described as bigger, faster, tougher or stronger than your common-or-garden SM? They are not born, they are made, just like any other SM. 

Their ability to combat demons comes from the fact the purity of their souls means they are anathema to demons, have a staggering mental strength and force of will, as well as having the ability to use the powers of the warp against them. Marry all that to artificer armour engraved with pentagrammic and hexagrammic wards, master crafted force weapons, and blessed ammunition embued with power from the waste products of the golden throne. That's how they can stand toe to toe with demons, not by being any bigger or stronger than an IF or UM.

You also seem to forget that while demons can warp reality somewhat, they are still bound by the laws of physics when manifested outside the warp.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> You also seem to forget that while demons can warp reality somewhat, they are still bound by the laws of physics when manifested outside the warp.




????


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> ????


I'm going to assume that's some sort of question. If they were not bound by physics non force weapons would have no effect on them, walls wouldn't stop them, and they could all travel faster than light across a battlefield, killing armies before they even realised the demons were there. But they don't because they can't. So yes, they are forced to obey the laws of physics. Reality severely limits the power of creatures that may be nigh unstoppable within the warp. If it didn't Gellar fields wouldn't be any use and warp travel would be impossible.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

in one of the Ultramarines book UM captain Ventris and friend need to fight 1 GK to prove that they are not corrupted from their stay in the warp. They loose, the point being that if they would have won (2-1) that would have meant they were corrupted, to me this is a direct indication that they are more powerfull than (primarch based) astartes.

I understand there is no direct proof but is has often been mentioned that they are the Emperors ultimate gift to mankind, given all his genetic lore (e.g. Custodes are 1-1 superior compared to standard marines as indicates in the first heretic) is seems reasonable to assume they are on a different plane.

The fact that they are pure at heart and all is dandy but my impression is that their strength comes from the fact that they are very powerful psykers that can somehow merge their powers, as very nicely illustrated in Ahriman sorcerer and the emperors gift. Certainly in the latter where (about) 110 GK face off Angron and friend (given they are Khorne spawn this definitely was a physical fight) one can see how powerful a group of GK can be (I would like to see any other regular marine 1st company against Angron and some blood thirsters).
I do not think however that at an individual level they are more powerful than say Tigurius/Mephiston/Ezekiel... but 5 GK should be able to do a lot of damage and be able to resist the psychic attack of genestealers certainly if one BA can overcome a broodlord

There is also the recent novella Maledictus where they face of Orks, has anyone read this for I have not, this should/could give a suggestion on how they fare against Orks ?


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> ...have a staggering mental strength and force of will...



And yet, one brood of Genestealers overwhelms that...if you are going to defend this crap, do it consistently please.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Deus Mortis said:


> if you are going to defend this crap, do it consistently please.


I have never claimed they were otherwise. In fact I have given them credit for this strength from from the get go. But a brood of genestealers can prove lethal to _any_ SM chapter, even without a psyker like a broodlord present to back them up. As LotN said, they killed all the other GKs because they proved beyond control. I just don't find it that much of a stretch that despite all that mental strength and iron will a possibly battle weakened and not necessarily powerful (some are barely strong enough to ignite their force weapons) psyker might be overpowered by something other than a demon. If you look at LotNs summation below it's obvious that complete control was not achieved, so his strength did help him somewhat.



Lord of the Night said:


> Roughly around five-ten Grey Knights overwhelmed by somewhere around sixty-eighty Genestealers. All but one of them them were killed and only that one survivor was mentally controlled via the entire nest combining their psychic might, and only enough to make him move like a jerky marionette. When Seydon fought under their influence he lacked any skill and was actually easy to defeat, Styre notes that his fighting was so basic that the Justicar could have held him off indefinitely without any worries for his own safety, because Seydon was still resisting the influence of the Hive Mind.





piemelke said:


> I understand there is no direct proof but is has often been mentioned that they are the Emperors ultimate gift to mankind, given all his genetic lore (e.g. Custodes are 1-1 superior compared to standard marines as indicates in the first heretic) is seems reasonable to assume they are on a different plane.


The Emperor had no hand or part in the creation of the GKs, be it their initial founding, or subsequent choice of geneseed used to found a full chapter.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I'm going to assume that's some sort of question. If they were not bound by physics non force weapons would have no effect on them, walls wouldn't stop them, and they could all travel faster than light across a battlefield, killing armies before they even realised the demons were there. But they don't because they can't. So yes, they are forced to obey the laws of physics. Reality severely limits the power of creatures that may be nigh unstoppable within the warp. If it didn't Gellar fields wouldn't be any use and warp travel would be impossible.


They are harmed by weapons because the wielder of said weapons believes it can harm them. In Know no Fear its stated knives and primitive weapons are more effective than modern weaponry because of ties to blood, rituals, etc. AKA a belief system.



Khorne's Fist said:


> The Emperor had no hand or part in the creation of the GKs, be it their initial founding, or subsequent choice of geneseed used to found a full chapter.


Ok now you've made it clear you have *no* idea what you're talking about and it wouldn't be far fetched to say you've been talking about a different IP all together this whole time. Thanks for wasting my time.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Ok now you've made it clear you have no idea what you're talking about and it wouldn't be far fetched to say you've been talking about a different IP all together this whole time. Thanks for wasting my time.


Sorry mate, but you are the one showing your ignorance here. Malcador assembled the first GKs, or knights errant, not the Emperor. They were presented to the Emperor by Malcador of course, but they did not become a proper chapter until after the Emperor ascended the Golden Throne. Whoever it was that gave them the specific task of fighting demons and selecting the appropriate geneseed for the fledgling chapter, it wasn't the Emperor. He had other things on his mind by then.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

kk


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## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

From the Grey Knights Codex...



> In his infinite wisdom the Emperor foresaw that even should He prevail against Horus the threat of Chaos would remain. He knew that of all the Imperium's many foes, the daemonic was the greatest threat, and so He created a brotherhood of incorruptible warriors to fight Daemons.





> Blessed with both superhuman physiology and the most advanced Imperial weaponry, the Grey Knights would be the elite of the Adeptus Astartes. However, it would not be enough for them merely to be strong of body and skilled at war, though in this they surpass even other Space Marines.





> His greatest warriors, the Space Marines, had proven fallible to the temptations of the Dark Gods and so the Emperor set out to create a new soldier in His bid to protect Mankind.





> In Malcador's absence, the Emperor had prepared a concealed fortress-monastery on the moon of Titan. Hidden under layers of rock and shrouded by powerful technologies, the structure had eluded discovery by the Traitors, their armies focused on Terra where the fate of the Imperium was unfolding. After departing the Emperor's Palace, Malcador's charges parted ways. The four human lords created the framework for the Inquisition, tasked with rooting out heresy from within the Imperium. Malcador took the eight Space Marines to the fortress where he set about laying the foundations of a new order of Space Marines. Everything had been prepared for the coming of the Sigillite and the Battle-Brothers; an army of Servitors maintained the fortress while cryo-vaults hidden at its core contained vast stocks of gene-seed.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

And yet the Horus Heresy series depicts the opposite. Malcador funded, built and gathered the Grey Knights on his own, with the aid of Nathaniel Garro and the Knights-Errant. The Emperor merely gave approval to the project, he wasn't directly involved as he was busy sitting on the Golden Throne and keeping uncountable hordes of Daemons from escaping through the human Webway Gate and raping Terra.


LotN


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## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

Crazy, eh?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Vitarus said:


> Crazy, eh?


Yep. The way I view it is that the Codexs and the like are the Imperium's official view on events, they are what the Imperium thinks happened. The novels are what actually happened.


LotN


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## VulkansNodosaurus (Dec 3, 2010)

Okay, this is absurd.

1. 70 Genestealers not just defeating, but crushing 10 Grey Knights, who are stronger than the average Space Marine, to the point of taking prisoners.
2. Genestealers mind-controlling enemies, which has not been an ability they've apparently previously had (well, not in this fashion).
3. Genestealers mind-controlling not just anyone, but a Grey Knight, who are powerful psychics and supposed to be resistant to that stuff.

Regardless of who, exactly, brought the Grey Knights together, I'll add mine to the chorus of voices denouncing this. I mean, if it was an entire Hive Fleet, that's one thing, but... well, you get the gist.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

VulkansNodosaurus said:


> 1. 70 Genestealers not just defeating, but crushing 10 Grey Knights, who are stronger than the average Space Marine, to the point of taking prisoners.


60-80+ Genestealers, creatures with claws that can shred Terminator armour like paper, defeating only ten Space Marines, albeit a special kind but not one that has been definitively stated to be physically superior to a regular Astartes, that were caught completely off-guard by the Genestealers and were very likely ambushed when they were alone rather than the 'stealers letting them all group together.

I fail to see how that is absurd.


LotN


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

See here's the thing I've still not quite understood; how were they ambushed?

I mean it's a Grey Knight ship, not a space hulk. Genestealers can't teleport and Grey Knights aren't exactly inclined to let any random ship dock in their cruiser, which rules out that was Genestealer infestations spread. They're psychic and (inferring from Ahriman: Sorcerer here) that would mean if the crew were compromised they would know. So how exactly does a brood of Genestealers get aboard a Grey Knight ship without anyone noticing and then proceed to isolate the Grey Knights (given that they are almost always in constant connection with one another and so the moment one was under attack, all the others would know). Is that explained or is it just stated as a fact as if we are supposed to make up a reason why that could possible happen?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Deus Mortis said:


> Defeated aye, but controlled? That's bollocks. If that's the case, why don't Genestealers control Marneus Calgar or someone else. You know, someone whose mental fortitude isn't supposed to be legendary and part of an order which is composed of the most powerful and best train psykers the Imperium can muster. It's a cheap gimmick that makes a mess of the Grey Knights just to push a few more copies of some crappy ass audio drama.
> 
> Besides, it's not like it's a whole hive fleet. It's just a nest of Genestealers for fucks sake. You know, the stuff that regular marines face down regularly and none of their dumb asses get possessed. Total bollocks!


Maybe because Marnus calgar isn't a psyker? Perhaps the connection to the warp a psyker has allowed them to be taken over by the hive mind easier.



Malus Darkblade said:


> GK's are the ultimate weapon. They have no physical equals, only the denizens of the Warp should ever pose a threat to them. They're mini-Emperor's literally.


So explain how the wolves gave them a bloody nose?




Vaz said:


> That's 3rd edition talking, mate. They are the Navy SEALS of the Space Marines, harder better faster stronger, and are used in operations involving the Crons, Eldar, and used against unknown foes.


I though that was supposed to be the point of the deathwatch? You know the arm of the ordo xenos?




VulkansNodosaurus said:


> Okay, this is absurd.
> 
> 1. 70 Genestealers not just defeating, but crushing 10 Grey Knights, who are stronger than the average Space Marine, to the point of taking prisoners.
> 2. Genestealers mind-controlling enemies, which has not been an ability they've apparently previously had (well, not in this fashion).
> ...


70 Genestealers who are capable of working together in ways that one can only start to imagine. Whose intelligence is still fully unknown.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Deus Mortis said:


> See here's the thing I've still not quite understood; how were they ambushed?
> 
> I mean it's a Grey Knight ship, not a space hulk. Genestealers can't teleport and Grey Knights aren't exactly inclined to let any random ship dock in their cruiser, which rules out that was Genestealer infestations spread. They're psychic and (inferring from Ahriman: Sorcerer here) that would mean if the crew were compromised they would know. So how exactly does a brood of Genestealers get aboard a Grey Knight ship without anyone noticing and then proceed to isolate the Grey Knights (given that they are almost always in constant connection with one another and so the moment one was under attack, all the others would know). Is that explained or is it just stated as a fact as if we are supposed to make up a reason why that could possible happen?


That admittedly is not explained. Seydon does make it clear near the end that the Genestealers caught them by surprise but no definitive explanation is given for how they got aboard. The GK ship is orbiting a dying world however, I think the idea is that the 'stealers came from that world and somehow managed to get aboard the GK ship.


LOtN


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> So explain how the wolves gave them a bloody nose?


Because a Chapter Master (Logan Grimnar), surprise attack, and ADB wanting to write something cool.

Try again.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> ...no definitive explanation is given for how they got aboard...



I thought as much. Allow me to provide some ways they got on board:

1) They snuck aboard by hiding in a craft leaving the dying world.

2) They were delivered via this spore mines they have.

3) They were already on board and the crew was under their control.

Now 3) is obviously not plausible, since I'm fairly certain that the Grey Knights would have noticed their crew acting strange. And if the Genestealers had the crew in service to them, they'd have waited until they got to a better target rather than butchering the crew and the Grey Knights.

Option 2) is slightly more plausible, but it makes no sense as to how the Genestealers got the drop on the Grey Knights, since the ship would have known it was hit by the spore mine and whatever delivered it (hive ship, etc) would have likely engaged the ship and the crew and the Grey Knights would have known that they were under attack, not ambushed while they were isolated and alone as the author maintains.

Finally we have option 1). Now if some unspecified vessel boards the Grey Knights ship, it either does it uninvited or invited. If it is uninvited then it's a threat and we have the same problems with option 2). If it was invited, we have to ask why. If it was a refugee ship from the dying planet, it never would have got within a million miles of the ship, because the Grey Knights work ceaselessly to preserve the secrecy of their existence. If is was an Astartes ship, they'd have been told to piss off. So the only real option is that it was a ship from the Inquisiton. But is it was an Inquisition ship why did the Grey Knights need to be there? And if they had been sent as back up, they'd have known the threat they faced and been on alert against Genestealers and other Tyranids, which the author maintains they weren't.

So the only option left to us is to assume that they made it back on a ship that left the Grey Knight's ship, presumably the Purifier's Storm Raven. That means that a bunch of trained Astartes managed to accidentally let on board a brood of 60 Genestealers. If that's the case then they deserved to die because they are fucking idiots.

Furthermore, if this brood of Genestealers is so powerful and their Shadow in the Warp so potent that it is able to overcome a being of legendary will power that even the Chaos Gods cannot overcome, how did the Grey Knights not sense it? Surely if this brood of Genestealers is so powerful at least one of these psychic individuals would have realised and warned his brothers.

I cannot conceive in my mind of any plausible way that this group of Grey Knights is 'ambushed' by a brood of Genestealers, that doesn't make them look like anything less than idiots. And I suspect that the author couldn't think of one either, which is why there isn't an explanation given. The author can't be fucked to come up with an explanation, the situation just arises because "fuck it, it'll be a larf". No explanation, no reason, nothing. Add that to the questionable idea that a Grey Knight can be psychically dominated and the brood of Genestealers which overcame the 10 Purifiers (and the chaos cults which took up subsequent residence) can't kill the similar sized force sent to investigate and you have everything you need to convince me that the author is just lazy and and makes up incoherent plot devices that are ill conceived and shoody in order to sell a 2-bit audio book that is inconsistent and the same crap that the Black Library seem to be churning out of late; a hastily written, poorly conceived and poorly managed piece of shit that is just intriguing to get people to by the day or two after its released and is immediately forgotten about just as nearly everyone realises its crap.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Maybe because Marnus calgar isn't a psyker? Perhaps the connection to the warp a psyker has allowed them to be taken over by the hive mind easier.


? let us take another UM, Tigurius, some claim him to be a psyker that is supposed to have had a connection with the hive mind itself (also Mephiston has been hinted to do so), and lived, he did not get taken by the hive mind, also in the recent deathwatch book a powerful psyker Lyandro Karras takes on tyranids (in a genestealer lair) without being taken over...
Mephiston killed a Carnifex with his bare hands (no genestealer intervened by taking over Mephiston)
I just finished deathstorm where genestealers are killed by the dozen

but just to be quantitative, in death of integrity terminators of the novamarines and the blood drinkers cleansed a genestealer-infested space hulk, !! a kill ratio of 53:1 was achieved !!

at LOTN, regarding your codex statement, I hope this does not hold, I regard codex fluff (in the case of the GK codex sadly so) as one of the more solid fluff sources.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

piemelke said:


> I regard codex fluff (in the case of the GK codex sadly so) as one of the more solid fluff sources.


Codex fluff is written from a 40k point of view, in this case with 10,000 years having passed since the events they describe. In the HH series we're actually seeing the founding of the Inquisition and GKs as it's happening. It's a similar situation to being told about D Day by a veteran that actually landed on the beaches of Normandy, and reading a history text written years after the fact. Neither of them are wrong, but the veteran's story is going to have a level of detail that a text book written years later by someone who didn't actually witness the events simply can't have.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

piemelke said:


> ? let us take another UM, Tigurius, some claim him to be a psyker that is supposed to have had a connection with the hive mind itself (also Mephiston has been hinted to do so), and lived, he did not get taken by the hive mind, also in the recent deathwatch book a powerful psyker Lyandro Karras takes on tyranids (in a genestealer lair) without being taken over...
> Mephiston killed a Carnifex with his bare hands (no genestealer intervened by taking over Mephiston)
> I just finished deathstorm where genestealers are killed by the dozen
> 
> ...


The hive mind tends to adapt to things, perhaps it's their connection with the librarians that allowed them to learn how to take over a psyker.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Because a Chapter Master (Logan Grimnar), surprise attack, and ADB wanting to write something cool.
> 
> Try again.


If the grey knights were as good as you say they are they wouldn't have been ambushed. 

They're marines trained to fight daemons, nothing more nothing less.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Okay, read The Emperor's Gift fully and completely before you make ANY statements about the Wolves vs Grey Knights debacle. 



Grimnar assassinated Grand Master Joros after being allowed on board a Grey Knights ship as allies, and ran away as soon as he'd performed the deed. The Inquisition could have crushed Fenris completely and were in position to Exterminatus it, they just withheld that ultimate sanction as they didn't want the Wolves dead - they wanted the Wolves to bare their throats to the Imperium. The Grey Knights did not want to fight the Space Wolves, but were forced to by the Inquisition after the Space Wolves started protecting ships full of Armageddon troops and evacuees who may have been corrupted by Angron's presence and that of his bodyguard and daemonic legion. Most importantly, the Space Wolves outnumbered and outgunned the Grey Knights but the GK were ordered to engage them anyway. Given that the Space Wolves are implied to be trained anti-Marine specialists in the Heresy (they also knoe that sniping out the Justicars will severely weaken the psychic communion of the Knights), it's fairly unsuprising that they won a series of almost entirely void-based battles (while GK ships are extremely good, they focus more on speed than on damage if I recall rightly and while they travel extremely quickly, they don't have appreciably better firepower than any other Strike Cruisers; someone correct me if I'm wrong) with overwhelming numbers and firepower on their side. If it came to a foot battle between GK and Space Wolves in equal numbers, I have no doubt that the Grey Knights would have won; through their vastly superior wargear if nothing else.


Typed on phone without my copy of TEG to hand, so not 100% sure on this.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> If the grey knights were as good as you say they are they wouldn't have been ambushed.
> 
> They're marines trained to fight daemons, nothing more nothing less.


The wolves came to surrender. No one would have guessed they'd fucking shank a few GK's here and there. Also a chapter master of an immensely powerful chapter did/orchestrated the deed.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> ...If the grey knights were as good as you say they are they wouldn't have been ambushed...



And as we have already seen, there is no plausible way that these Grey Knights would have been ambushed. So either they are massive idiots who shouldn't have passed initiation or the author is crap and pulling things out of their arse.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> The hive mind tends to adapt to things, perhaps it's their connection with the librarians that allowed them to learn how to take over a psyker.
> 
> 
> If the grey knights were as good as you say they are they wouldn't have been ambushed.
> ...


the events described took place near the very end of the Millenium likely not the first encounter with a psyker, if what you say is true, from now on every librarian fighting genestealers is a time bomb, I have a hard time believing that, and just to be clear 

a kill ratio of 53:1


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The wolves came to surrender. No one would have guessed they'd fucking shank a few GK's here and there. Also a chapter master of an immensely powerful chapter did/orchestrated the deed.


No I guess you're right, there's no possible way that they wouldn't have assumed the guy who never opened fire on them while they were killing billions would ever decide to attack. /sarcasm.

Seriously though the gk have to be fairly stupid to not expect an attack.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> No I guess you're right, there's no possible way that they wouldn't have assumed the guy who never opened fire on them while they were killing billions would ever decide to attack. /sarcasm.
> 
> Seriously though the gk have to be fairly stupid to not expect an attack.





> There was little meat to the reports, and nothing in the way of actual conflict. The Wolves never waited for long, nor did they return fire when fired upon. Their desire was to evacuate every soul they could, and scatter them from our paths.


Doesn't sound much like a group who are prepared to attack you, does it?



> The Grey Knights realised the Wolves' game earlier than the inquisitors holding our leashes. On more than one occasion in hololithic transmission meetings, I'd been forced to watch Lord Inquisitor Kysnaros shouting down all counter-arguments offered by our order. He was still certain containment could be reached.


The Inquisition didn't think the Wolves would attack, and therefore ordered the Grey Knights to continue regardless of the increasing likelihood of a Space Wolf attack. Granted, the Grey Knight leader didn't really help matters (it's noted in the book that he 'lacks a great many commendations for command'), but he was also bound by the command of Kysnaros.



> 'Kysnaros suspected the Wolves of treachery. We opened fire before they had a chance.'
> 'And you believe that, my lord?'
> He had the aduacity to laugh, despite the gravity of the situation. 'Not for a second. But this is our chance, brother. We take Grimnar captive, and his Chapter will kneel in submission'.
> 'This is perfidy, Joros. It leeches any honour our order ever laid claim to.'
> Castor shook his head. 'Signal's lost, sir.'


After the Inquisition issues the message to the Wolves about coming aboard to discuss terms, Hyperion says _"I honestly expected them to die in proud silence, aboard their wounded flagship."_ They did not expect an attack from the seemingly crippled and until-now-peaceful Space Wolves.

The Space Wolves agreed to come aboard to discuss terms, and Brand Rawthroat even told Hyperion to 'watch how a Wolf surrenders'.



> While he lacked a great many commendations for command, a a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades. A vital aspect in any blademaster's repertoire is the ability to read an opponent's movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned.
> And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar's axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master's breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop.
> Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground... In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain. That should explain, at least partially, how quickly the High King of Fenris moved.


Now that's what I call a 'surprise attack'.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Doesn't sound much like a group who are prepared to attack you, does it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm fairly certain watch how a wolf surrenders is code for we're going to be fighting with no concern for survival from this point on.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

No it's code for "I'm going to chew your face off like I'm high on bath salts".


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Vaz said:


> No it's code for "I'm going to chew your face off like I'm high on bath salts".


So basically what I said but with less letters?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Who said anything about no concern for survival? Apart from you, of course?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> I'm fairly certain watch how a wolf surrenders is code for we're going to be fighting with no concern for survival from this point on.




It could easily have been interperted as Grimnar surrendering with pride and dignity like a viking king of old when faced agaisnt a stronger adversary.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It could easily have been interperted as Grimnar surrendering with pride and dignity like a viking king of old when faced agaisnt a stronger adversary.


Because clearly the way into Valhalla was to throw down your sword and fall to your knees.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Which we know, because we know about Vikings. The particular Inquisitor in charge, or Hyperion hearing that message, probably didn't know about Viking beliefs.


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