# The Terminator-Shrike Bomb



## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

I had a crazy idea for a Shrike-Bomb/Raven Bomb list:


I have posted it in Tacticas because I wanted to see what the implications of such a combo could have to armies in general.

According to the new codex, Shrike grants Infiltrate to ANY unit he joins before the battle:

As well as granting Fleet to the entire army...


*Imagine the panic of a 10x man terminator squad with Fleet, Infiltrating within 13" of enemy lines?*


I have used standard termies as they pose a double-threat.

Able to shred guardsman squads piecemeal with fire by attacking a flank out of LOS of the rest of the opposing army, or fleeting to reach a gunline while the rest of the army peppers threats to terminators with heavy weapons fire.


Having Shrike with Init 5 Raven's Claws helps thin out ranks before the power-fists strike, while having 4x krak rocket shots a turn will do wonders if I can start rolling up a flank and get side shots on armour whether across the board or right before assaulting the tank.

Also, I havent found any references to skimmers being hit only on 6's in assault. Am I correct in understanding that skimmers are far more vulnerable to assualt now?

The idea is to try to rip the heart out of of the enemy early, and give them lots to deal in their own backyard while my troops shoot their heavy weapons out of rhino top-hatches or move towards objectives.

If I face a horde/assault army, I just infiltrate to my own lines and shoot up Synapse/ Ork Trukks with Lascannons, pepper gaunts/boyz them with SB/Frag Heavy Bolters, and channel them into flamer killzones using rhinos/preds so the tac squads can isolate and flamer/combi-flamer them piecemeal.


[a bit light on troops I feel, but they are fairly well protected in their transports and can be combat squaded if need be. I felt I needed a biker unit to support the terminators as well as contest objectives.]

Thinking of perhaps swapping the bikers for scout bikers if I can make them work better in the list.




I have included the list as well, but am more interested to hear about what people think about this combo, and other potentialities of combining Shrike with other non-traditionally Infiltrating units....

*HQ: 195 pts


Captain Kayvaan Shrike [Infiltrate to Terminators, Fleet for whole army]
----------------------------------------------------------

Elites:460


10x Terminator Squad
2x Cyclone

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Fast Attack:225

5x Bike Squad
Vet Sgt Sword
[add flamers if pts allow]

--------------------------------------------------------------------

TROOPS:710


5x Scout Squad [have 85+ pts to spend on equipment]

10x tac squad
Lascannon
Free Flamer
Vet Sgt Fist
Combi-Flamer
Rhino

10x tac squad
Lascannon
Free Flamer
Combi-Flamer
Rhino

10x tac squad
Lascannon
Free Flamer
Vet Sgt Pwr Fist
Combi-Flamer
Rhino
--------------------------------------------------------

HEAVY SUPPORT:405

Predator "Avenger"
[TLLC/Lascannons, Dozer Blade, Smoke, Light]

Predator "Rammstein"
[TLLC/Lascannons, Dozer Blade, Smoke, Light]

Predator "Warspite"
[TLLC/Lascannons, Dozer Blade, Smoke, Light]

========================================

-2000-


EDIT: I removed the 6th biker and Attack bike in favour of a small scout squad I hope to give Camo-Cloaks if pts allow

I feel this is a more solid derivative with more Troops/Objective-grabbing power.
*
Scouts will lurk in buildings and cover, effectively 3++ invuln save. Mainly for holding bunkers and backfield objectives.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

As far as I know it's legal, but your terminators can't sweeping advance. So feel free to smash into a wall of vanguard with 3+ invul saves, who will than leave combat, only to have everything in the army vaporize your (unsupported)terminators.

Although it's a great first round charge, I'd have a dedicated assault squad of terminators, they're going to be in assault, or assault-ed anyway, why stop them from that lovely thunder hammer, lightning claw nonsense lol


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

infiltrating termi's? thats just wrong! seriously if it's legal than it looks like an awesome tactic.


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

I agree with your assessment of that particular plan of action, Lord Waffles.

Except it's a rather one-dimensional end-game that sells short the opportunities this tactic affords.

With ranged fire terminators, you don't have to send them off charging into blocks of units like crazed berserkers.

By Infiltrating, you put terminators in that sweet spot range of 6-24" where they can become a real headache for your opponent.

Would I charge a vanguard squad full of storm shields?

No.

Knowing full well that termies can't sweep, and marines have combat tactics; I wouldn't even deploy near vanguards...

I would find a weak spot in the enemy line that was vulnerable to storm bolter/krak missile fire, and/or lightning claws and power fists.

I would make sure to attack an isolated flank that does not have ready support from the rest of my opponents army.

The idea isn't to blindly throw a scary assault unit at the bulk of the enemy line. 

It is to put terminators in a position that best suits them. Close to the enemy on a flank where they can do the most damage with the least amount of retaliation.

In the end, people who field this believing its an auto win situation will have their ass handed to them.

Generals will have to realize they are putting 11 models worth 650 pts into harms way in close proximity of the entire enemy line...

The idea of spamming this combo will then lose popularity as people realize this tactic leaves little room for mistakes.


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## godzy (Jun 5, 2008)

question:
IIRC, it is stated in the current codex, that you can only have IC without terminator armor join a terminator squad *during* a game. this might kill this combo. rule lawyers advice please?


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

*Huzzah!*

The current 5th edition rulebook only states that Independent Characters may start the game joined to a unit. p48

p21 of the current Space Marine Codex on Characters has no such reference

you are mixing up the "Command Squads/ Terminator Command Squad" rules on p 29 and 30 respectively...

_"Terminator Command Squads may only have characters attached to them only or other models attached to them if these models are equipped with Terminator armour"_

this is in regards to treating the squad as the character's retinue. It has nothing to do with INDEPENDANT Characters joining standard squads.

Indeed there is no such restriction to standard elite terminator slots.

*On to more tactica!*

In case of an army spreading across the board in order to prevent a nice Infiltration, you can alternatively Outflank with Shrike and his terminator retinue.

Your opponent, having gone to all that trouble in spreading his forces thin to negate your Infiltration, now faces you coming on the board from the short edges.

Shrike, being an Independant Character, can leave the squad immediately, use his jump pack to jump 12" past the first victim squad [target of terminators, preferably an Anti- TeQ unit], Fleet D6", and then charge 6" into the next squad in line to not only lock them in combat, but Block Line of Sight to the Terminators in case their prey is able to break and disengage.

Obviously, try not to get Shrike swamped, but there are lots of juicy targets for his attentions in the backfield...

I think the Tau especially will be shaking in their 3-toed boots in this instance. 

Shrike would have their Crisis Suits in his cross-hairs. After that, not much left to counter terminators...

Weakness to the Outflank is the rest of the army has to play defensively while awaiting the Reserves.

I have countered this by making a mechanized marine force with heavy weapons and armour, ideally suited to shooting and moving at range until the initiative is regained. Use of terrain and refused flank is a given with this army.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Infiltrating Termies? You can't. The reason? Simple.
The Infiltrate rule has an asterisk, meaning that if an Independent Character with the rule joins a unit that doesn't have the rule, the Character instantly loses that rule. Thus, Infiltration for Terminators is not allowed.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

IS it actual fact that shrike can do that or is that just from rumours??


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Cato Sicarius said:


> Infiltrating Termies? You can't. The reason? Simple.
> The Infiltrate rule has an asterisk, meaning that if an Independent Character with the rule joins a unit that doesn't have the rule, the Character instantly loses that rule. Thus, Infiltration for Terminators is not allowed.



Agreed. You are absolutely right.

Except the 5th Edition Space Marine Codex states.... AND I QUOTE [via Direct services spelling it out nice and slow just now to reconfirm what I already had written down]

*'Shrike and all models in his unit benefit from the Infiltrate rule.
(see W40k Rulebook)'*


This isn't about a normal character joining a squad and giving it Infiltrate just because your character has it. That is covered by the asterisk rule.

This is a SPECIAL RULE for Shrike only that does indeed grant Infiltrate to any squad he joins.


_Captain Shrike – (WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv3+) gains an Iron Halo and WS6 (ouch!) - his lightning claws still rend and still master-crafted. His army gives up Combat Tactics for Fleet and any unit he joins may Infiltrate along with him._

Exactly the same format as Lysander's Bolter Drill Special Rule, where the squad he joins benefits from rerolling misses of bolter, stormbolter, and heavy bolter shots.

If you want proof, look at this link:



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v415/AceGunman/1213549046183.jpg

It is Khan's White Scar Special Rules. Again same format, 1x army wide special rule, and 1x specific special rule conferred only to the squad he joins.

Its even written in the same way.


BTW, multiple squads of terminators Outflanking is a *reality *now with the WS rules.

So I don't think 1x squad of Infiltrating terminators is as much of a stretch as some people are making it out to be.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

That's bitching good then:biggrin: I wouldn't use it myself but if it's legal then go for it. Sounds good but very risky. If they have blasts they can go pretty fast....


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

For me, its not so much about shocking/tricking my opponent with a one-trick pony as giving my terminators some abilities in both deployment and movement that MAY make them viable and competitive again.

Having a unit of scouts added to the mix will allow me to make them a triple-threat.

Either Infiltrate, Outflank, or Deepstrike without Scatter.

Maybe too many options for some. I tend to believe flexibility in a unit is paramount.

Case in point, even though my marines are mechanized, the Fleet rule for tactical squads may very well come in handy for end game assaults. It's a great team tactic when you have one rhino dump a squad out to rapidfire enemy troops on an objective, while the other squad eschews their rhino and makes it into assault with the remnants to make sure they are tied up and finished off.

(Plus I like the idea of being able to rundown Striking Scorpions with Fleeting terminators.... )

The idea is to make the army as flexible and adaptable as possible.

Every single unit in my army has both an anti-tank and anti-horde capability.

Every unit has fleet, has transports or can Outflank/Infiltrate/Deepstrike.

Deployment alone will cause my opponent fits. How does he/she counter all possible threats?


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

Ok, listen. Whoopie you can infiltrate or outflank with a squad of termies, who honestly cares. I don't know you personally so don't take this personally, but you are the sort of person that just pisses me off beyond all else. I understand that it is legal and all, but the fact that terminators (big hulking "Dreadnoghts") can infiltrate is just retarded and you would have to be a total dick to do something like that.
If you want an entire community to hate you and never want to play you a game be my guest, but just remember that beating the crud out of an opponent because you have a cheesy-ass list isn't everything.

Sorry if i seem a little harsh but there a quite a lot of people that pull shit like that at my local GW, including the manager...


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

Another thing on your tactics is you are treating your opponent like an idiot, afterall, what would happen if you make a mistake or misjudge something?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Sons of Russ said:


> For me, its not so much about shocking/tricking my opponent with a one-trick pony as giving my terminators some abilities in both deployment and movement that MAY make them viable and competitive again.


So you have very confused terminators that don't specialize in anything?



Sons of Russ said:


> Having a unit of scouts added to the mix will allow me to make them a triple-threat.


I don't mean to give a negative vibe about this, but your one unit of scouts will be thoroughly ignored, or wiped off the board if you come anywhere near my 'zerks.



Sons of Russ said:


> Maybe too many options for some. I tend to believe flexibility in a unit is paramount.


It's a good philosophy to follow....until that unit fights a unit with specialization.



Sons of Russ said:


> Case in point, even though my marines are mechanized, the Fleet rule for tactical squads may very well come in handy for end game assaults. It's a great team tactic when you have one rhino dump a squad out to rapidfire enemy troops on an objective, while the other squad eschews their rhino and makes it into assault with the remnants to make sure they are tied up and finished off.


But what do you do when any location you'd dump marines off at means their certain death? I laugh at the notion of rapid firing marines without plasma. at the end of the day, I'll take four armor saves and ace three, than massacre that 200 point unit in an assault.



Sons of Russ said:


> (Plus I like the idea of being able to rundown Striking Scorpions with Fleeting terminators.... )


I'll give you credit here. Bedamned eldar. But what you -should- be running down is banshees. Striking scorpions aren't nearly as powerful. Or even wraithguard if you can get a charge off. Or even that bedamned eldraaaad.



Sons of Russ said:


> The idea is to make the army as flexible and adaptable as possible.


It might be a chaos thing, but lists that usually do this aren't specializing enough to beat a cheese list.



Sons of Russ said:


> Every single unit in my army has both an anti-tank and anti-horde capability.


Unless these upgrades are dirt cheap, you've managed to nullify half of your good weapons every turn.



Sons of Russ said:


> Every unit has fleet, has transports or can Outflank/Infiltrate/Deepstrike.


Welcome to the new marine dex of broken, would you enjoy a delicious cookie? Hahah, nah but seriously, I gotcha.



Sons of Russ said:


> Deployment alone will cause my opponent fits. How does he/she counter all possible threats?


I stomp them into goo with a daemon prince. I'll just deploy whatever I want to counter your expensive unit(Or to act as a meat shield) while dealing with your space marines as I see fit.

Or when my new codex comes, vanguard and sternguard with the stupid commander that allows rerolls, or the stupid commander with T6, feel no pain, and maybe the stupid commander that lets me fleet as space marines, nullifying their only weaknesses isn't broken at all

Despite what you're trying to say (Infiltrating terms, oh no) you're devoting alot of hope that the one unit will be able to wipe the board of everything I have or distract me for some length of time. And it's simply not true. If your terminators are really causing me duress, they'll be charged by a mob of 2+/4+ terms with lightning claws and most of them being champs. Since you chose to not specialize, I'll rend the terms clean off the board, and since you'll be down 300ish points the rest of the match, I'll just continue lashing things into favourable positions.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Those cannot be Shrike's rules! Holy fuck! I mean sorry for swearing but Jesus! No offense meant there either. Every unit has Fleet!? That's insane! GW would never allow that! If they did I wouldn't play against an army with Shrike. Allow me to repeat that... I WOULDN'T PLAY AGAINST IT!!!


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## Gakmesideways (Aug 16, 2008)

Yeah, this combo is total cheese. I would not play against it.

But at the same time, I don't think its as powerful as some are making it out to be. As mentioned above, those termies are going to get wiped out first turn, whether it be shot or charged, they are done.

And then guess what? You are down several hundred points.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Yeah but I didn't mean the Termies. I meant the rules he gives.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Enemies with fleet just mean they get to be killed quicker....bring em on!


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## Ishamael (Aug 26, 2008)

Considering the advantages Shrike gives to a force he is joining, I hope it'll be balanced by his point value, ie make him expensive. Although the possibility of sneaky terminators is somewhat disconcerting, they'll be a priority target first turn out, so it's a risky move. However, the fact that GW is giving all these new tactics and special rules to SM special characters who don't seem to be restricted by a minimum points game (like the Tau codex, as that's the only case I've seen those recently, like Farsight only in a 1500+ game) will give a huge tactical advantage to any SM player who looks at a special character, sees how much badassery he lends to the army, and finds a list to take complete advantage of that character's leadership.

I don't know how Special Characters influence other armies (as I've only got experience with the Tau and Chaos codexes) but these new SM characters are really amazing.


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## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

I can see how this could be a real pain in the ass for an army to handle and the tactics are there like them or not. Now all this may change when the new SM codex comes out or you may see more of this style. 
The main counter to this style is to have good deployment and good counter tactics for dealing with this. Each unit able to cover or add fire support to other units or have things in the army that can deal with terminators or swamp them and wear them down. 
I face a lot deep strike/drop pod/Infilitrate armies so this would not be that big of a surprise but it does cause some problems as a quarter or a third of the army must deal with this pop up squad which I think is what most people are concerned about.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

morfangdakka said:


> I can see how this could be a real pain in the ass for an army to handle and the tactics are there like them or not. Now all this may change when the new SM codex comes out or you may see more of this style.
> The main counter to this style is to have good deployment and good counter tactics for dealing with this. Each unit able to cover or add fire support to other units or have things in the army that can deal with terminators or swamp them and wear them down.
> I face a lot deep strike/drop pod/Infilitrate armies so this would not be that big of a surprise but it does cause some problems as a quarter or a third of the army must deal with this pop up squad which I think is what most people are concerned about.


The codex is out already. Shrike is less than 196 points. Needless to say, unless I want to play a "friendly" game, I'm just taking him.

And it's not just having to deal with that one squad, it's the fact the squad will suddenly just murder something if the enemy goes first. 

For other armies, their hqs generally don't matter. Tyranids usually choose a hive tyrant unless bogged for points, chaos goes all over the board(But at competetive things, daemon prince.) But for spess mehreens, they get these pimped out hqs, the only downside of shrike is you can't use his slot anymore for another awesome hq choice! Also he takes out combat tactics....but honestly fleeting is worth it. And having squads at full strength when they assault is much better than splitting heavy weapons fire.


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

CATzeentch said:


> Ok, listen. Whoopie you can infiltrate or outflank with a squad of termies, who honestly cares. I don't know you personally so don't take this personally, but you are the sort of person that just pisses me off beyond all else. I understand that it is legal and all, but the fact that terminators (big hulking "Dreadnoghts") can infiltrate is just retarded and you would have to be a total dick to do something like that.
> If you want an entire community to hate you and never want to play you a game be my guest, but just remember that beating the crud out of an opponent because you have a cheesy-ass list isn't everything.
> 
> Sorry if i seem a little harsh but there a quite a lot of people that pull shit like that at my local GW, including the manager...



Since we're being so familiar with each other, why don't you post me a viable, competitive list that strongly features terminators.

Better yet, post it here so I can be shown the error of my ways.

After that, you can tell me how mad your gonna get when THREE squads of terminators OUTFLANK you on turn 2 using the White Scar rules. Oh yeah, and with them the REST OF HIS ARMY outflanking you.

These are not some small, obscure rules dug up that the playtesters forgot to consider. These are very obvious ARMY-WIDE special rules featured for highlighted special characters that each get a full page in the new rulebook.


Bottom line; terminators, as they currently stand are NOT worth the points. There is almost always a better way to spend your points.
*
Unlike many, I won't be spamming Storm Shield Thunder Hammer Terminators Assault squads. I will be trying to use a standard squad of terminators that are still the same pts cost as 4th edition, have lost their veteran skills, and now need to take 10 man squads for two heavy weapons. On top of this their heavy weapons are more expensive AND they are no longer scoring.*

If your so upset at this particular combo, I hope you have some valium when the new Marine Codex drops worldwide.....

THERE ARE FAR WORSE COMBOS IN THE NEW MARINE DEX.

Marines now play more like eldar in terms of having mechanic-changing special rules for many of their units.

Vanguards drop-podding on biker-scout homers.... think about that one for a minute...
_
Or perhaps a command squad of bikers, all with plasma guns, storm-shields and a medic affording Feel No Pain Outflanking in turn 2 because Tiggy gives you rerolls to your reserves...._




Every shiney unit and new ability is supposedly balanced by it's points cost. Whether they are or not, only time will tell.


*Again, show me a solid list including a sizeable force of terminators that are both effective in the meta game and worth their points value.

Since you called me out, I am expecting an answer from you one way or another.

The quality of your reply will determine how seriously I should value your opinion hereafter.*


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

*Bang-Bang*



Gakmesideways said:


> Yeah, this combo is total cheese. I would not play against it.
> 
> But at the same time, I don't think its as powerful as some are making it out to be. As mentioned above, those termies are going to get wiped out first turn, whether it be shot or charged, they are done.
> 
> And then guess what? You are down several hundred points.



So which is it? They are overpowered, yet at the same time easily wiped out on the first turn?

Where exactly do you draw the line?

I know damned right its a risky move to use a squad of terminators in this way, and it makes the army far less forgiving to mistakes, but also rewards good use of your forces if you make good decisions.

I often play Deathwing list at 2000 pts with as few as 3 troop choices and only 15-21 troop minis. I like armies that require careful handling. 


*I didn't write the codex. But soon we will all have to play against it.*

Are you also not going to play against:

A Marneus army?

A Lysander army?

A Cantro army?

A Khan army [ARMYWIDE OUTFLANK, even for dedicated transports]?

Oh yes, and BTW, GW has deemed that all Special Characters are now "counts as" meaning anyone can use them in any army.

In fact, you could use more than one special character in an army.

As ridiculous as it sounds, you can even use Special Character FROM DIFFERENT CHAPTERS in the same army list. 



Marnues together with Khan, the only drawback would be having to choose only one ARMY WIDE special rule. Each character would still be allowed to exercise their individual squad-based special rules.

A 10 man squad of scoring sternguard [due to Pedro Cantor] joins Lysander, who allows the whole squad to twin link their bolter, storm bolter, and heavy bolter shots....

All of the above combos I do not state with relish. 

It almost seems that GW is going with a "Warmachine" style of play that favours combos.

Since I am not a playtester, and we have yet to game with it, we can't really judge what's broken and what's fair until it has been shaken down in many games...

This is the future, ladies and gentlemen. Like it or not.

Don't shoot the messenger.


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

CATzeentch said:


> Another thing on your tactics is you are treating your opponent like an idiot, afterall, what would happen if you make a mistake or misjudge something?



You'll have to be more specific. How am I treating people like idiots?

Of course I can make a mistake and misjudge something. Infiltrating terminators close to the enemy line is putting them in harms way, and could be moronic in a large number of situations and instances. 

I could just as easily decide to just deploy them last in my deployment zone if only to benefit from seeing both armies initial set-up.


If some of you have read this thread and feel I came here to get backslapped for finding some kind of unbeatable uber-combo in the new marine dex, I apologize for not making myself clear.

Thanks to all so far who have added feedback with balanced opinions, tact and supported points. 

I am presenting a way to possibly breath new life into a unit that most people won't give a second thought in leaving them at home.

You don't think it would be ridiculously easier to just take a jump pack squad and either infiltrate/Outflank move 12", D6" and then charge?

Of course it would. 

Do you think that because I have mentioned them here, people will not find these types of very obvious combos on their own in the next two weeks?

And you will see far worse before the month of November.


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## officer kerky (Jun 12, 2008)

i never knew you could do that. thats really dangerous


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Sons of Russ said:


> Since we're being so familiar with each other, why don't you post me a viable, competitive list that strongly features terminators.


Hey, I appreciate you not calling me out on this, but mind if I throw my opinion into this post to show off my brainmeats? Also to kind of mediate?

And, unfortunately I haven't played around with the new codex enough to post an actual honest-to-god point-for-point mayhem 1500 list, but if you want a current chaos list with terminators, I'd be more than happy to post it. I love terminators. The idea of creatures larger than space marines and half as large squad size teleporting into the most dangerous situation and emerging scathed but kicking is a great thing.



Sons of Russ said:


> After that, you can tell me how mad your gonna get when THREE squads of terminators OUTFLANK you on turn 2 using the White Scar rules. Oh yeah, and with them the REST OF HIS ARMY outflanking you.


Nobody is going to even TRY to say this new codex is not broken as all hell without many a person laughing at them. Space marines got buffed and got INSANE characters, while maintaining(for the most part) point cost.



Sons of Russ said:


> These are not some small, obscure rules dug up that the playtesters forgot to consider. These are very obvious ARMY-WIDE special rules featured for highlighted special characters that each get a full page in the new rulebook.


Playtest? GW? *snort* Nothing personal against the staff but even a light browsing over the characters would make it obvious they should never have been printed on paper. Chaplain Cassius seems like some child's creation of a super powered chaplain on cocaine with feel no pain. These characters are simply homebrewed monstrousities.




Sons of Russ said:


> Bottom line; terminators, as they currently stand are NOT worth the points. There is almost always a better way to spend your points.


Chaos termies beg to differ, and honestly the new assault terminators are bad assed 3+ invul jerks with free upgrades. I'm honestly going to field nothing but these guys for <45 average points a model.



Sons of Russ said:


> *
> Unlike many, I won't be spamming Storm Shield Thunder Hammer Terminators Assault squads. I will be trying to use a standard squad of terminators that are still the same pts cost as 4th edition, have lost their veteran skills, and now need to take 10 man squads for two heavy weapons. On top of this their heavy weapons are more expensive AND they are no longer scoring.*


I...I don't really sympathize at all for losing veteran skills or having to take ten guys to take another heavy weapon. Welcome to chaos terminators. Also heavy weapons cost more? Welcome to chaos terminators. The only downside to space marine terminators is that they prepay for bitching equipment. Oh noes. And this downside is easily negated by the fact your terminators will A)never be sweeping advanced[important] and B)return to fighting below half strength.



Sons of Russ said:


> If your so upset at this particular combo, I hope you have some valium when the new Marine Codex drops worldwide.....


I'm hardly upset by the combo, but this was probably directed at the other dood. I just don't think space marines need to be informed of any potential problems. I'd like to win one or two games before the playstyle arises and just rapes everything.



Sons of Russ said:


> THERE ARE FAR WORSE COMBOS IN THE NEW MARINE DEX.
> 
> Marines now play more like eldar in terms of having mechanic-changing special rules for many of their units.


You mean they're broken and had their codex made by somebody in the office who plays that army? Noooooh.



Sons of Russ said:


> Vanguards drop-podding on biker-scout homers.... think about that one for a minute...


Vanguards EXISTING. Let's pause right there.



Sons of Russ said:


> _
> Or perhaps a command squad of bikers, all with plasma guns, storm-shields and a medic affording Feel No Pain Outflanking in turn 2 because Tiggy gives you rerolls to your reserves...._


Why stop there? Throw the stupid librarian so anything these fiends shoot at with an invul save has to reroll it.




Sons of Russ said:


> Every shiney unit and new ability is supposedly balanced by it's points cost. Whether they are or not, only time will tell.


I needed all of five seconds. I'm pretty sure it won't take the community more then an average of six seconds to see the blatantly point effective marines taking over. They are -not- balanced by their points. Not by a long shot.
The most obvious example is cassius as you can ballpark what he should cost since he doesn't have any gamebreaking special abilities....besides his statline.




Sons of Russ said:


> *Again, show me a solid list including a sizeable force of terminators that are both effective in the meta game and worth their points value.*


Assault terminators with some storm shields. Good at killing MCs, tears apart orks, eldar banshees will be powerless against 3+ invul.



Sons of Russ said:


> *Since you called me out, I am expecting an answer from you one way or another.
> 
> The quality of your reply will determine how seriously I should value your opinion hereafter.*


It's not hard to make a powerful list with the new dex. Just take special characters. Doesn't matter too much. Also take telion. He can snipe chaos icons for <70 points.


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## doctor thunder (Sep 11, 2008)

Am I the only one who thinks this sounds like a lot of fun to play against?

It's interesting, different and fun. Sounds like a great time.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Your not the only one doc, though you may not be int he majority. SoR, you now my feelings on this tactic; its good for larger games where you have the points but not really the best for smaller lists. The flexibility it gives you for a squad of terminators is pretty good, maybe even take Sicarius as the second HQ to infiltrate a squad of tactical marines while your at it, open up another option of last deployment.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

doctor thunder said:


> Am I the only one who thinks this sounds like a lot of fun to play against?
> 
> It's interesting, different and fun. Sounds like a great time.


It'd be great to play the game where if I have a single model left condition, than I win. Otherwise it's just raperaperaperaperape.

I'm not offended by a challenge, or having an underwhelming army. That's all well and good. I'm offended by this blatant favouritism. I knew it was here when I started the hobby, but I didn't know it was this bad lol. I didn't know it was T6 feel no pain chaplain for the same cost as a chaos sorceror with mark of slaanesh and lash of submission, bad.

I didn't know it was Vindicare assassin with a squad of scouts for 50 points, bad.

I look at these entries and the possibilities and honestly, I just don't want to play against it anymore with my current force hahah. I'm not trying to be a bad sport about it, it's just I don't want to pay 90 points for a chaos champ with an icon that will be randomly killed by Telion. I don't want to pay 30+ points for psychic powers I can't use. I don't want to pay 40 points for a crappy invul save I have to, negatively, REROLL on. It's just bullshit.

Oh and yes it is going to be interesting to play a space marine or as one with all these funky rules, it makes the game exciting. Unfortunately, losing every damn game to these funky rules is extremely unappealing. 

Actually, I can explain it in a very short sentence. Marines now always play like an eldar list geared to kill YOU. It'll be a tough fight you have no chance to survive, so you make minor "moral victories" for yourself to pass the time as you lose. "Oh boy! I killed his chaplain. Take -that- the rest of your massive army of rape!"


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## Gakmesideways (Aug 16, 2008)

At no point did I call the combo overpowered, read _carefully_. I find the rules, to be extremely cheesey. 

And I play Death/Raven. I know all about the strengths of terminators.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

There are several ways to make a good list with terminators involved but it wouldn't be terminator heavy. whwnever I use them, which is quite often nowadays, I always have them Accompanied by something. Assault termies, only one storm shield, have to have a crusader to be any good. That, with a character, not even a special character can rip through an entire army.... I've done it before. 
Basically A valid list using terminators needs things that complement terminators well. basic termies need some extra speed and cover fire so a rhino running near them to block LOS is good, Also bikes. With your list I think if your terminators are killed you will have very little punch in the rest of your army.... It's too much of a one trick pony....


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

*Still waiting*



Lord Reevan said:


> There are several ways to make a good list with terminators involved but it wouldn't be terminator heavy. whwnever I use them, which is quite often nowadays, I always have them Accompanied by something. Assault termies, only one storm shield, have to have a crusader to be any good. That, with a character, not even a special character can rip through an entire army.... I've done it before.
> Basically A valid list using terminators needs things that complement terminators well. basic termies need some extra speed and cover fire so a rhino running near them to block LOS is good, Also bikes. With your list I think if your terminators are killed you will have very little punch in the rest of your army.... It's too much of a one trick pony....


"have to have a crusader"

"basic termies need some extra speed"

EXACTLY.

Not a big fan of the Raider rush. Kind of a no brainer what that unit will be doing...:wink:

That was the whole purpose of the exercise here. Give standard termies some more speed through superior deployment options.




LordWaffles said:


> _Hey, I appreciate you not calling me out on this, but mind if I throw my opinion into this post to show off my brainmeats? Also to kind of mediate?_
> 
> 
> I wasn't calling YOU out at all. I was calling out Cat for this:
> ...


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Sons of Russ said:


> "have to have a crusader"
> 
> "basic termies need some extra speed"
> 
> ...



"Superior Deployment"? What are you, high? We're talking about fleeting terminators!

It's terminators....THAT FLEET!

How do you lose when you can have terminators that move like jump infantry? lol although yeah, I'll be bringing shrike with every list I make, no doubt.


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

LordWaffles said:


> "Superior Deployment"? What are you, high? We're talking about fleeting terminators!
> 
> It's terminators....THAT FLEET!
> 
> How do you lose when you can have terminators that move like jump infantry? lol although yeah, I'll be bringing shrike with every list I make, no doubt.


Please reread my above post. 

I don't see how terminators can move like jump infantry. They can not jump over enemy squads to get at another target, they can not jump over impassible/difficult terrain. They can not Sweeping Advance. Terminator can already run in 5th edition. Having fleet only allows them to assault, not fire their weapons.

And jump infantry fleeting have a potential two foot charge.

Again, this is a no holds barred tournement list designed for the same.

Again, I enjoy fluffy games, and this list is not even close to fluffy.

Haven't been on Vassal much lately, but I welcome a friendly or tournament game with you all. 

Just be specific. You can't expect a certain game experience if you leave things in a grey area.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Sons of Russ said:


> Please reread my above post.
> 
> I don't see how terminators can move like jump infantry. They can not jump over enemy squads to get at another target, they can not jump over impassible/difficult terrain. They can not Sweeping Advance. Terminator can already run in 5th edition. Having fleet only allows them to assault, not fire their weapons.
> 
> ...


I meant terminators that can move 12" and still assault. It's just wrong. Although I didn't really think about jumpackers fleeting. That just seems impossibly ridiculous. And terminators can't sweeping advance, but if you have the squad, usually they'll just outright murder most things. And I'd gladly play a game with anyone in this thread...if they used the old marine dex, or if they'd be so kind as to wait for me to purchase the new one for a fair game. I didn't mean to claim you were incorrect, just that terminators moving 12 and assaulting is silly


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

raider rush may be a very obvoius option but it gets the job done.... Plus it's fluffy so for me that makes it. this is not fluffy at all So I personally dislike it and wouldn't use it but would play against it and If you can make it work then fair play. 

Do you have any other fast moving units that could get up to them quickly? If sternguard can take similar weapons to BA VAS then you can make them into a decent shooting unit that could assist the terminators..... On their own, even with shrike, they're a bit too much of a vulnerable target......

Also if you're using the basic terminators you have several more options Than giving them a crusader..... Every other use of assault terminators I have seen that did not use a crusader failed miserably.... Ranged they're a good bit more flexible....


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Lord Reevan said:


> raider rush may be a very obvoius option but it gets the job done.... Plus it's fluffy so for me that makes it. this is not fluffy at all So I personally dislike it and wouldn't use it but would play against it and If you can make it work then fair play.
> 
> Do you have any other fast moving units that could get up to them quickly? If sternguard can take similar weapons to BA VAS then you can make them into a decent shooting unit that could assist the terminators..... On their own, even with shrike, they're a bit too much of a vulnerable target......
> 
> Also if you're using the basic terminators you have several more options Than giving them a crusader..... Every other use of assault terminators I have seen that did not use a crusader failed miserably.... Ranged they're a good bit more flexible....



*Not knocking the Raider rush in general.* But I find unless you run more than one raider, it gets knocked out fairly quickly. With the new fluid nature of the game, it was very easy to get range and sights on with AP1/ melta weaponry.

LordWaffles, I wouldn't ask anyone to play against the new codex until they've had a chance to go over there own copy, or at least read a buddy's...

I think there will definitely be some shock, awe and big adjustments when the codex drops. Honestly, I don't think the sky will fall. It's a new way to play marines, with new counters and new tactics to freshen the hobby for all.
I hope to revisit with you all in November and see how everyone has progressed in both dealing with and utilizing the new Marines.

In the end, there are lots of ways you could TRY to justify fleet for RavenGuard... 

*I won't. *

That's GW's deal if they choose to fiddle with established rules/fluff.
How easily we forget; they can do whatever they want.

It's their copyrighted IP.

They made it all up in the first place.:read:


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

It seems like a one-trick pony. not only is there the rather large problem of your opponent only being taken in once or twice, you are putting a lot of faith in that ONE uber squad of doom to do enough damage before they die ( and they will). it would be more effective to infiltrate a cheaper squad that can potentially do as much damage, while participating in a larger plan.

This is a trend I have seen with a lot of us ( myself included) we tend to get hung up on a unit's nifty ability, but neglect to ask ourselves what it will do for our forces as a whole. It is neat that shrike can ( or could) grant infiltrate to termies, but they can deep strike, which makes infiltrate kinda redundant. if you could attach him to a bike squad, or a devestator squad......


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Again, please reread my ideas for the unit. They don NOT revolve around Infiltrating within assault range of the enemy in most cases.

The ideas are similiar, but more complex in execution than Lysanderwing. Often a person could get away with spamming max numbers of termies to make up for botched placement. This unit is a fine scalpel that cuts very well in the right conditions, but can be bent and broken just as easily when mishandled.


SoM: You can attach him to any of the above. In fact ANY unit that can attach characters. Let your imagination run wild...

All probably more efficient or more 'nifty' combos.....


*But I don't think you find a better way to buff a shooty terminator squad in ANY marine codex [be it BT/DA/BA nor even SW, trust me I've tried them all]*

Its just a pet list to see if I can make a large unit of my favourite models viable.


Now if you'll all please excuse me, all this talk has gotten me misty-eyed.

I'm gonna go find my termies and stare at them lovingly while making shooty noises for them like Lord Helmet from Spaceballs...


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Sons of Russ said:


> Since we're being so familiar with each other, why don't you post me a viable, competitive list that strongly features terminators.
> 
> Better yet, post it here so I can be shown the error of my ways.
> 
> ...


Be very careful, this sounds a little too aggressive for me, and I am someone that has beenpublicly described as a "Barbarian", or "oozing with hostility" and it wasn't meant as a compliment, and the person that said it was dead serious. I think you need to calm down and take it less personally, this is a beardy combination, and very unrealistic to do.

Terminators get short shrift because too many players are uncomfortable with the deepstrike rules, which is their main advantage after being able to move and fire without penalty.


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

With all due respect, this issue has been resolved, and I see no mention of the post the I was replying to in your quote.

You have been PM'd.

In the interest of keeping this thread on track. I would like to ask people who have had a chance to go thru the new codex in some detail to voice some possible counter measures to game changing army wide special rules such as Shrike's Fleet, Khan's Outflank, and Calgar's God of War. 

At the very least it will create some discussion and illuminate those who haven't had a chance to peruse the new dex...


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## PUFNSTUF (May 9, 2008)

vindicators?  a shooty fleeting termy squad is fairly dumb, since fleeting means no shooting. I'd say a TH/LC termy squad would be better with shrike. Outflank isn't much of a biggy, just deploy more in the center. Its similer to when I use my stealer outflank list. Though a outflanker bike list with shrike in it giving all bikes fleet you won't really be able to hide from, but your also looking at a VERY expensive list. As for Calgar, ignore him? or throw a bunch of PW hits at him, he strikes last with those fists anyways.


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## sdnick (Sep 7, 2008)

I havent read the new codex obviously but how can shrike be in a terminator squad without terminator armor? and can you even put terminator armor on him?


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

A while ago it was legal to infiltrate 5 raptors (easy to hide) with three meltaguns.

It was a one hit wonder that never got popular because it wasn't effective.

It obviously died easier than the termies but the fact remains your opponent can kill the unit, no matter what it is.

I think this is a bad idea, I have three units of kroot that will prevent you assaulting any of my useful units. The plan is they surround my battle suits, you charge them, they run, and I shoot you.


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## spike12225 (Aug 21, 2008)

Ok yes new codex is looking cheesy but van guard are 30pts with jump packs sternguard 25pts anything good/scary is expensive with out the storm shields power weapons and is everyone forgetting space marines are always released first with new edition
meaning we will be potentially over powered by new list take necrons now hard can be beaten but monoliths are near impossible to kill and watching 8 necs get back up on 4s sucks.
So saying i won't play it is sad i'm a raven guard player since third ed liked there fluff/history and fleet suits what they do rapid attacks who's to say he won't roll a one on fleet at the enemys front line is a death sentence any cheese list/army list can be beaten after playing it you make changes in tactics making you a much better gamer in time i'm always up for a tough fight why i like fighting orks there numbers care not for power weapons lascannons very nice combo not a termy fan though infiltrate assualt sq better bet.


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

Nice post "sons of russ"

I think a couple of the guys replying are here on holiday from dakka dakka. Try to ignore them. I really think your posts have been polite throughout and one post which implies threatening language from you is wrong and then replies with an implied threat actually made me laugh out loud.

I like the idea and would have no problem playing against it. Most armies except maybe tau and gaurd have close combat units capable of chewing up a termie squad in combat. I mention this only to show that I don't think the combination is broken.

I like all the new stuff I am hearing about although I haven't seen the codex yet. This thread has really got me interested. I find the current marine codex so incredibly boring that I haven't had marines out of the box for years. And terminators are underpowered I think.

All my opinion obviously.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I wouldn't do it with terminators just because of the insane cost, but it would be handy with some sternguard vets (2 heavy weapons, 2 plasma guns, 4 guys with special ammo bolters) infiltrated into an ideal firing position, then SHrike breaks off and JP-Fleets over to the nearest assault squad.

Or as a cheap way to play with the new Vanguard vets (they're way the hell too expensive with JPs, but on foot they're not too terrible). Infiltrate them close and fleet even closer, first turn assault is possible.

And yes, let's keep it civil. The new codex isn't out yet, but it is legal. You can put shrike in any unit you want and they gain infiltrate (and the whole army gets fleet). It's a valid tactic.

As far as other special abilities, I've seen some list ideas with Kharn leading a band of assault termies in a land raider (crusader or the flamer one). Furious charge, hit and run, and outflank all coming into play in one nasty, if expensive package. Make use of razoracks and the like for the rest of the amry and it's pretty abusable.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

There are some really crazy objections to this. The "Zomg you cheezehound I wouldn't play against you evar!!11" type stuff has no place on this forum. The OP is asking a reasonable question. He is also right in saying, later on, that it is by no means the most effective combo in the new marine codex, or other codexes. Chill out or go somewhere else.

Shrike's ability to give everyone fleet is very good. Clearly, shooty terminators aren't the best recipients of this rule. I imagine that people will be infiltrating him with a vanguard assault squad or something like that.

This unit will be a genuine threat. It's very wrong to write it off with the standard "but I would just shoot that unit" reply. The shrike guy knows whether he is going first or second when he deploys and he knows where you are, because infiltrators deploy last. You won't find shrike and co standing in the open in front of all your heavy guns waiting to be shot.

Balance-wise it's difficult to judge. You get fleet but you lose combat tactics, and CT is an excellent ability in a shooting army (which codex marines mostly are). Fleet doesn't do your shooty guys any good so you are trading off one ability that helps everyone for another that benefits only a few. It's difficult to build shrike's unit now that it can't sweeping advance as well. You have a difficult choice between a huge points sink and a small unit that isn't going to survive the counter-charge.

Personally I won't be using shrike and I'm not scared of him. People always cry when their opponents get new toys.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Someguy said:


> There are some really crazy objections to this. The "Zomg you cheezehound I wouldn't play against you evar!!11" type stuff has no place on this forum. The OP is asking a reasonable question. He is also right in saying, later on, that it is by no means the most effective combo in the new marine codex, or other codexes. Chill out or go somewhere else.


It's a very strong combo that would nearly always give the Shrike player the advantage. It's just like in friendly competition when people bring two daemon princes of slaanesh and a ton of plague marines. It's not a fun game. The fun just slowly collapses like a flan in the cupboard.



Someguy said:


> Shrike's ability to give everyone fleet is very good. Clearly, shooty terminators aren't the best recipients of this rule. I imagine that people will be infiltrating him with a vanguard assault squad or something like that.


Most likely, or sternguard for one turn of the most deadly rapid firing ever while shrike goes to murder something.



Someguy said:


> This unit will be a genuine threat. It's very wrong to write it off with the standard "but I would just shoot that unit" reply. The shrike guy knows whether he is going first or second when he deploys and he knows where you are, because infiltrators deploy last. You won't find shrike and co standing in the open in front of all your heavy guns waiting to be shot.


Than exactly what should we do about it? "Roll six to steal the initiative" is about all I can think about. He deploys last, he's seen where you're going. He's -going- to murder the hell out of some unit. Deploying all the way back really isn't an option if it's a capture the objective game(2/3 of the time it is)
So essentually, the 'strategy' is to hope for him not to kill you shitless on the first turn disreguarding shooting since he'll appearently be impenetrable. Damn.



Someguy said:


> Balance-wise it's difficult to judge. You get fleet but you lose combat tactics, and CT is an excellent ability in a shooting army (which codex marines mostly are). Fleet doesn't do your shooty guys any good so you are trading off one ability that helps everyone for another that benefits only a few. It's difficult to build shrike's unit now that it can't sweeping advance as well. You have a difficult choice between a huge points sink and a small unit that isn't going to survive the counter-charge.


I'd say fleet more than makes up for it. Fleeting dreadnoughts, assault specialists, and troops means that you can just run like a limp-wristed eldar(Faster, actually with assault troops), while still being a murderous storm-shielded, lightning-clawing marine. Why would the shooty guys even need to be involved when your dreads can hit the enemy line by turn two?



Someguy said:


> Personally I won't be using shrike and I'm not scared of him. People always cry when their opponents get new toys.


I'll be using him all the time. Hopefully GW will notice the only army winning tournaments is vanilla marines of varying degrees.




onlainari said:


> A while ago it was legal to infiltrate 5 raptors (easy to hide) with three meltaguns.


Best. Codex. Ever.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

My initial comments weren't really aimed at you Waffles. You are welcome to your opinion that Shrike is overpowered, though I don't currently agree with you (one of us is likely to change our mind at some point in the future). It was the personal abuse from other posters that I objected to.

Anyway...



LordWaffles said:


> He's -going- to murder the hell out of some unit.


True. One of your units is likely to die to this.

So what? You can virtually guarantee that the unit you lose won't have been as valuable as Skrike and his friends.

I find the idea of vanguard vets with lightning claws or thunder hammers and storm shields, lead by shrike, pretty hilarious. They kill one of your units, but whoopsie, they cost 3 times as much as the guys they killed and they die too.

I've been going to 40k GTs for a decade now on and off. I've seen and played against a lot of tournament winning armies and I've done pretty well myself. The only time anyone with the "super-duper-unit-of-death" has won a tourney was back when Seer Councils existed, and even then it wasn't the council on its own that did the job. Skrike and co are not Seer council - they do not have 11 point guys with a 4+ rerollable invulnerable save. They are not backed up by "old school" wraithlords and 90 point, 3 shot, scoring unit starcannons (some with BS4).

As far as vanilla marines winning all the tourneys goes no, they will not. Marines do now have a good codex, with which you could win a tourney, but they will not automatically win. Marines have actually had a pretty bad tournament record in recent years by all accounts and, while this codex certainly gives them some cool new stuff, it also takes stuff away (not least the second assault cannon in termie squads in this current example). To be honest it will be hard to judge the impact of this on player numbers, since so many people already play marines. 

With their codex released very close to the dates of heats this year it's likely that they will do well simply because people will not be prepared for them.

By all means bring Shrike along, I'm sure lots of people will bring him, or Khan, or any of the others. If you win I'll stand corrected.


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> opefully GW will notice the only army winning tournaments is vanilla marines of varying degrees.


This is not going to happen. The space marines are very expensive and only have an average amount of damage output. This tactic can also be reasonably countered.


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

Armies which will suffer from shrike will only be those which rely on sit back and shoot and are therefore scared of powerfull close combat units.

Many other armies such as daemons, chaos marines and nids can rely on getting up close anyway and so will be OK. The combo isn't broken just new. In my opinion.


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## Trignama (Jun 29, 2008)

the cabbage said:


> Armies which will suffer from shrike will only be those which rely on sit back and shoot and are therefore scared of powerfull close combat units.
> 
> Many other armies such as daemons, chaos marines and nids can rely on getting up close anyway and so will be OK. The combo isn't broken just new. In my opinion.



Gonna have to agree here, if you are playing tau/imperial gaurd yeah ur gonna have something to really be worried about here. 

As for any other army with at least a decent CC unit (pretty much all albeit maybe necrons) really shouldnt be too worried, yeah ur gonna get shot up, its gonna hurt, but you'll pay it back 10 fold with a good CC unit or two, hence the shrike player taking a huge hit when it comes to points lost to the amount of points dmg dished out. 

I personally play a templar army and really wouldnt be too worried about this tactic, granted ur gonna cause havoc to one of my units, but the many more assault units i have are going to make mince meat of you.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Trignama said:


> Gonna have to agree here, if you are playing tau/imperial gaurd yeah ur gonna have something to really be worried about here...



Most if not all Guard players will have a Leman Russ or 2 in a game of this size. 1 Leman Russ, equals 1 Strength 8 Ordnance Blast, plus other weapons. 2 Leman Russ' means twice that. I'd say, combined with a few Autocannons, this should take out 10 Termies. Not only that but Tau have Battlesuits which means Plasma Rifles and/or Fusion Blasters which means death to Terminators. It also means Railguns. Usually 3 in a game this big.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

the cabbage said:


> Armies which will suffer from shrike will only be those which rely on sit back and shoot and are therefore scared of powerfull close combat units.
> 
> Many other armies such as daemons, chaos marines and nids can rely on getting up close anyway and so will be OK. The combo isn't broken just new. In my opinion.


And not all that new (unless you have been playing since rogue trader, then I apologize) The Uber assault of doom was pretty big in 3e, so was the big bug, now known as " 'nidzilla". 

These lameattempts at taking advantage of the rules are nothing to be scared of. An ork player that outshoots you, well that's another thing altogether.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> And not all that new (unless you have been playing since rogue trader, then I apologize) The Uber assault of doom was pretty big in 3e, so was the big bug, now known as " 'nidzilla".
> 
> These lameattempts at taking advantage of the rules are nothing to be scared of. An ork player that outshoots you, well that's another thing altogether.


Agreed. It might be a surprise the first time but after that people will simply have something prepared for it..... I always have a decent assault unit held back just in case something like this happens.... I'm pretty sure peope will start doing the same after having it done on them.....

Also can deepstriking terminator characters be attached to other deepstriking units other than terminators? that way you then have calgar able to DS with vanguard and assault.....


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

In an alpha legion army I used to infiltrate a raptor squad with a tooled up champion and two melta guns.

Sometimes they did a lot of damage sometimes not. But like the similar shrike combo, were far from game winners on thier own.


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## Trignama (Jun 29, 2008)

Cato Sicarius said:


> Most if not all Guard players will have a Leman Russ or 2 in a game of this size. 1 Leman Russ, equals 1 Strength 8 Ordnance Blast, plus other weapons. 2 Leman Russ' means twice that. I'd say, combined with a few Autocannons, this should take out 10 Termies. Not only that but Tau have Battlesuits which means Plasma Rifles and/or Fusion Blasters which means death to Terminators. It also means Railguns. Usually 3 in a game this big.


This is true and i can agree to this, but lets not forget that ordinance can scatter and terminators do have an invulnerable save, albeit not great but they still have a chance to live so if you dont drop them pretty much ur first round of shooting, they are gonna be a little close for comfort imo


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