# Fantasy and 40k



## Brapapple (Jul 13, 2010)

I have to ask, does WHFB and 40k have a shared history or are they separate universes?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The only things they have in common are freaky elves, orks, inquisitors, empires, khorne, tzeentch, the *** god, and nurgle. Other than that nothing. 40k is suppose to be our universe but 38k in the future.


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## Brapapple (Jul 13, 2010)

/thread i guess. it would be cool tho if the universes did combine a history


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## dewn_moutain (Aug 7, 2010)

from what ive heard, back in the day, warhammer was the first on the scene, i think 83 it as (not sure on the dates, so forgive me if im off). when rogue trader came out in the late 80s, the history was a shared one. 
the history given, in a brief and very rare article, stated that the warhammer world was set in the 40K universe, but was surrounded in impenetrable warp storms. the same OLD ONES who were at war with the necrons at the beginning of time also shifted the continents, created the lizardfolk, and taught magic to the elves. they also battled the chaos gods and created a special gate at the north pole of the world to control the flow of chaos into the world.

But, i think it was either the second or third edition, GW decided to change the story, saying "although they share the same chaos gods, and some of the armies have the same names, it is 2 entirely different universes." A main, and valid reason from a business point of view, is that the devolpers of the games seperated the worlds for fear of people just buying into the 40k army, leaving the fantasy army to go away. "why buy into the fantasy, when its more exciting to fight futuristic battles." so they seperated it, made it 2 wholly contained universes/campaign settings meant to please the fantasy war gamer and the scifi war gamer.


hope this helps


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## Endymion (Jul 19, 2010)

When I was much younger and just getting into the hobby my cousin told me that the WHFB world was actually a planet inside the Eye of Terror and that Sigmar was one of the lost Primarchs, among other rubbish... This isn't true, though. 

But sometimes it's nice to wonder...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Endymion said:


> When I was much younger and just getting into the hobby my cousin told me that the WHFB world was actually a planet inside the Eye of Terror and that Sigmar was one of the lost Primarchs, among other rubbish... This isn't true, though.
> 
> But sometimes it's nice to wonder...


I don't think its completly rubbish. I could see why some people would think so. In fact if they ever wanted to put both worlds together that would be the best way to do so.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Not really, sigmar isn't anywhere near primarch level whoopass.


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## dewn_moutain (Aug 7, 2010)

with the first and second editions of warhammer, sigmar was at the pinnacle of god/hero worship. sure, with the publishing of the sigmar series by black library, hes legendary status has gone from "super-awesome-mighty human wielding a great warhammer" to "just a lucky guy who was at the right place and right time", but, i think you can look at the stories and compare them to something like "decent of angels" or any other books about the primarchs and see some similarities. a man with no equal, able to unite the local human populace against a common enemy, chosen by the people to lead them, had a signature weapon.

myself, i tell my friends, and when my kids are old enough to hear the stories, i plan on telling them everything i know about the primarchs, and ill include sigmar in those ranks of awesomeness.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

dewn_moutain said:


> with the first and second editions of warhammer, sigmar was at the pinnacle of god/hero worship. sure, with the publishing of the sigmar series by black library, hes legendary status has gone from "super-awesome-mighty human wielding a great warhammer" to "just a lucky guy who was at the right place and right time", but, i think you can look at the stories and compare them to something like "decent of angels" or any other books about the primarchs and see some similarities. a man with no equal, able to unite the local human populace against a common enemy, chosen by the people to lead them, had a signature weapon.
> 
> myself, i tell my friends, and when my kids are old enough to hear the stories, i plan on telling them everything i know about the primarchs, and ill include sigmar in those ranks of awesomeness.


But might that not backfire when they eventually go online or talk to other gamers who hold to canon and they decide daddy was a bullshitter?

Overall Sigmar had no equal but each of his talents was bettered by one of his compatriots, there were men who were smarter, men who were stronger etc- like the Emperor in a way (i.e. Angron was more brutal and blood thirsty, the Lion was an unsurpassed tactician, Horus was a superb statesmen etc).


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## dewn_moutain (Aug 7, 2010)

oh im not going to be selective to them with what ill tell them. they will know the history of both of the games, and the history behind the development of the editions through the past 25 years.

true, some of sigmars friends may have had a quality better than his, the pure of heart, the great of faith, the strong arm wiht the big sword, but each one of them was content with the status quo. sigmar had the mindset to look forward past his own generation, and saw that things needed to be different, to ensure the survival of the human tribes. so he did what no other human did, and that was unite the tribes. So, i say having some brass balls the size of lustria is a pretty good trait. its what the lion had when he proposed his plan to rid the forests of the monster creatures. 

so sure, in the 40k universe, he wouldve been someone the universe forgot about, but in fantasy, hes a fricken GOD! and dont all space marines hold their primarchs at a diety level just below the emperor?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Oh right, I see where you're going with this- you threw me with the comparison to Primarchs at first.

You're saying that Sigmar had such a polarising and wide reaching effect on his world that it was/is akin to what happened to each of the worlds the Primarchs landed on.

Okay I actually fully agree with you if that was the point you're making.


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## dewn_moutain (Aug 7, 2010)

nailed it on the head, baron.

sigmar is like the primarchs in how much of an effect he had on the world.


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

dewn_moutain said:


> nailed it on the head, baron.
> 
> sigmar is like the primarchs in how much of an effect he had on the world.


I'd have to say "Not Really", he didn't unite the entire world under his leadership. He didn't even unite all the human tribes, Bretonia & Kisliv may have allied with his Empire but they don't worship him. Plus all the humans in Cathay didn't even know about him. 

I'm just saying that most all of the Primarchs rose to a postion of dominence over their entire home world, Sigmar just united one smallish nation of his.
I'd think if he was a "True" Primarch he'd have united all the humans on the planet and set about destroying all the other races or at least beating the back so they would no longer be a threat to humans. Just look at what the Lion did on Caliban. I just don't see the dominence and power of a Primarch in Sigmar.

I haven't read any of the early history Fantasy books yet, so I don't know how he's protrayed in them.

Just my opinions, it is an interest theory and may have been something GW considered to be fluff in the early days but I think they've mostly ret-coned it and gotten away from it.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Capt.Al'rahhem said:


> I'd have to say "Not Really", he didn't unite the entire world under his leadership. He didn't even unite all the human tribes, Bretonia & Kisliv may have allied with his Empire but they don't worship him. Plus all the humans in Cathay didn't even know about him.
> 
> I'm just saying that most all of the Primarchs rose to a postion of dominence over their entire home world, Sigmar just united one smallish nation of his.
> I'd think if he was a "True" Primarch he'd have united all the humans on the planet and set about destroying all the other races or at least beating the back so they would no longer be a threat to humans. Just look at what the Lion did on Caliban. I just don't see the dominence and power of a Primarch in Sigmar.
> ...


Angron, Perturabo, Mortarion, Ferrus Manus, Alpharius, and Rogal Dorn didn't unite or rule their worlds either.

Kislev and Bretonnia didn't exist when Sigmar was a mortal man, and since Cathay did relatively regular trading with the kingdoms of Khemri it wouldn't be beyond plausibility that the Dragon Emperor heard of the Emperor Sigmar through those contacts.

It was Sigmar who forged a true alliance with the Dwarves, it was Sigmar who destroyed Nagash and one of the first human Daemon Princes. He allied the myriad tribes and forged them into a, relatively, stable Empire (which is more than the Khan did and he conquered the entire of his world).

Edit: Plus we weren't saying Sigmar was a Primarch but that he had a similar effect on his world.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He still isn't on the level of a primarch for me. He isn't on par power wise and his actions are nothig more than that of a great HUMAN leader. By this def we could say Logan Grimnar or Dante were primarchs. I don't consider him to be on par with any of the primarchs.


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## dewn_moutain (Aug 7, 2010)

How bout looking at it this way then.... the primarchs were genetically engineered to be super badass.

Sigmar, born human under the twin-tailled commet, united "most of" the human tribes, single-handedly took out the super badass nagash, made friends with dwarves, literally mowed orcs down like a farmer schything wheat fields at harvest time, and took down a shaggoth after being hit by a lightning bolt.

the primarchs had it easy. genetic super strength, genetic super brain powers, genetic looks, genetic everything.


sigmar... Just like you or me....with a really big hammer!:biggrin:


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

You could link it together by this crazy theory.

The warp, the immaterium, could have access to more than one Galaxy

Crappy Diagram
XXOXX
OXXXO
XXOXX

O being a galaxy and XXX representing what we know as the Warp, the place inbetween galaxies, for say a spirit world, Holding the universe together.

Now if the warp was known to be ruled by 4 Chaos Gods, it wouldn't matter which galaxy, because it's the same warp.

Thus explaining how the 2 separate universes could link the same idea of Tz, Khorne, Nurgle and FagGod together.

As for why im certain they're 2 separate worlds;

The necrons have been alive since the beginning of time, Waged wars with the Old Ones, and if it was the same universe, Necrons would be in Fantasy.

Do i make sense?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well you assume a lack of knowledge of the existance of the necrons mean an actual lack of existance. IOW, simply because you don't know it's there doesn't mean it isn't. I would have pointed to the eldar and the elves and possibly said that since the elves, who look just like the eldar, don't know of the existance of the eldar across the starts that thy should be different... Or the fact that the company said it wasn't, maybe.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

I suppose thats logically possible, If the Necrons where burried miles under the ground in their Temples, But i didnt think that came until Millenia later. 

You make a good point.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well idk, baron will have to give me a thumbs up on this or not, but I believe most tomb worlds are lifeless husks that had died long ago.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

My ears are burning...



ROT said:


> You could link it together by this crazy theory.
> 
> The warp, the immaterium, could have access to more than one Galaxy
> 
> ...


Yeah that's a theory a lot of people have independently come to variations of, and one I myself believe in.


gen.ahab said:


> Well idk, baron will have to give me a thumbs up on this or not, but I believe most tomb worlds are lifeless husks that had died long ago.


A lot of Tomb Worlds are also dead worlds, probably stripped of life when the C'tan went into hibernation- possibly to give the C'tan a last meal before the long sleep, or maybe to prevent any sentient species becoming interested in the planet and disrupting the hibernation or harming the Necron forces- but since we don't know how many worlds contain Necron Tombs it's just supposition.

We do know that there a number of worlds which were either never stripped of life or life some how got a foothold once more in the 60 million years since the C'tan and their servants went into their tombs (probably they weren't stripped fully because it would take much longer than 60 million years for life to evolve from scratch)>


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Thanks for that. I simply think they are different realities that some nerds cam up with and made a shit load of money on... But that's just ne.

Also, I suggest you stop putting the text into an audio format.... It would do less damage to your ears.


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## ownzu (Jul 11, 2010)

maybe sigmar is the emperors human side?
edit-oops threadromancy :S


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## Robfu (Feb 14, 2012)

*conjecture*

Ok this is how I understand it to be. The Warhammer Fantasy world is a relic world created by the Old ones. Everything there is a reflection of the 40k universe proper. Even if it now exists in a separate universe it is connected. The Fantasy setting existed first. The Old ones are in fact GW's creators, the fantasy world is their D&D world. Now on to how things get weird. The world being a relic world and holding all of the creatures and things the Old Ones created, Old Ones could be also a nod to the Old Gods in a Lovecraftian spin. The Old Ones seem far more benevolent. Well they make a relic world to store all their creations and such as a living library, and this library also records things from the 40k universe as reflections of events. Now time exists different there as in the warp so events are not reflected in a event for event fashion. Sigmar is a reflection of the Emperor. It is possible that Sigmar is actually a reincarnation of the Emperor. All of Sigmar's war mates could have also been reflections of his Primarchs. It is possible that some of them were actually redeemed in these incarnations. Being that magic is more openly used and far safer on this relic world because of the warp stop gag the Old Ones created. The undead on the fantasy world are a reflection and the reflection of the lost flesh of the old enemies of the Old Ones, and the star gods they worshipped are there too, but as very weak representations and influence. I have an old adventure for Warhammer Fantasy where the party finds a metal ship crashed into the side of a mountain, where inside are large warriors too small to be giants, but so large not to be ordinary men. Maybe they are Half-giants. They are wearing the strangest armor made of a metal or material that you have never seen before. The armor cannot be worn, and if taken to reforge could never be forged. The only thing that is salvagable from the wreckage is a "magic" crossbow. The crossbow is weird because it doesn't have a bow in its design. and the bolts are more like ob longed cannon shells. Now understand this is before Dwarfs had guns in fantasy. So this crossbow had limited charges and the "bolts" exploded like mini fireballs when hitting their target.
The ship was a crashed thunderhawk gunship and the Half-Giants were Space Marines. They had been lost in the warp and crash landed on the relic world.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Please be mindful of text-walling and Threadomancy. 

Everything you said sounds like the crazy theories of a conspiracy theorist. None of it has any real evidence to back it up and gw themselves have already made their stance on this issue.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

dewn_moutain said:


> from what ive heard, back in the day, warhammer was the first on the scene, i think 83 it as (not sure on the dates, so forgive me if im off). when rogue trader came out in the late 80s, the history was a shared one. The history given, in a brief and very rare article, *stated that the warhammer world was set in the 40K universe, but was surrounded in impenetrable warp storms*. the same OLD ONES who were at war with the necrons at the beginning of time also shifted the continents, created the lizardfolk, and taught magic to the elves. they also battled the chaos gods and created a special gate at the north pole of the world to control the flow of chaos into the world


Yeah, since then Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 were separated into different universes

I think it would be rather cool if they were alternate universes joined by the Warp


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## Robfu (Feb 14, 2012)

well, I have proof cause I own the document, but shh, its in my book of secrets.


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