# Vermin Lord and when do you take him?



## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

Looking at the vermin lord, I couldn't possible help but wondering when you would drop 500 points on a single model. In what sort of skaven army would you take him over a grey seer or massive horde of clan/slave rats? At what points level does he become viable?


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## KarnalBloodfist (Jan 30, 2010)

Why not take him? Some DoC players (yes, I'm one of them ... enough of the hissing and booing people! ) take naked GDs as soon as they can (which is 1800pts). So, if a vermin lord is 500pts and has no upgrades, then, AFAIC, he's viable at 2000pts. I'm sure there are other ... "competative" players who would probably scoff at me for saying that but ... oh well. That's my hay penny's worth!


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

I'd love to be able to include one as I'm custom building one as I type this, just I don't know how to justify taking him at 500 points in a skaven build and where he would fit in.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

I would not spend that much on a character until at 2500 points, especially with the ability to run a grey seer and fighting warlord that can match him in magic and fighting and stay hidden in units. He is very vulnerable to high S hits with multiple wounds from war machines and high strength shooting. An organ gun with master engineer can kill him in one round of shooting or leave him so wounded he does not have much of a chance of surviving. He is only T5 with a 5+ ward save and 5 wounds. A unit of 8 leadbelchers will similarly to a lot of damage with an average of 28 shots, (3 wounds) and finish the job in a second round of shooting. Thus, he has to have the ability to gain cover (hide behind a building or another large target and ability to hide behind something able block cannon balls (bulidings, obstacles, impassible terrain) when facing such threats. Similarly, he is vulnerable to certain characters with high armour saves and ward saves at S5 or greater attacks (dreadlord on cold one or peg with pendant of k and whip of agony, warrior of chaos lord with MoTz and talisman 4+ ward and armour) and/or very strong with lots of wounds (great unclean one; keeper of secrets with asf and re-rolls to hit). He is best used taking on smaller units of monsters and monstrous infantry or cavalry due to his multi-wound (D3) ability, high initiative and high weapon skill. You are putting your primary caster of magic with your fighting lord with only a 5+ ward save. He must be supported and must get into combat quickly (preferrably against something with low WS and lower S so they are hitting on 5's and wounding on 6's) and stay there. If he gets into combat with units with WS 4 or greater or S4 or greater, he can be in serious trouble unless augmented because he will get wounded, even if he wins combat (on thundersomp usually). 

For example, a chaos marauder horde will hit on 4's and wound on 4's and pump out with frenzy from MoK a total of 16 attacks. That will leave 3 wounds on average. They will remain steadfast for a turn and finish the job, even striking last on the second round of combat most of the time. 

That being said, the vermin lord is under-rated because of his high I and WS and high S, the thunderstomp abilities and the D3 wounds per unsaved wound he causes to a model plus his magic.


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## NoPoet (Apr 18, 2011)

The solution would be to keep the VL under cover until it can spring into action, preferably supporting a large Skaven assault or attacking an enemy character. The VL would be a killing machine against other monsters in particular. Also, I can't really see the Skaven fielding anything in quite the same league to assault an Arcane Fulcrum in SOM games. 

If I were using a Vermin Lord to have a break from the usual Grey Seer on a Screaming Bell that I bet everybody takes to every game, it wouldn't matter if enemy spellcasters e.g. Teclis shut you down in the magic phase - you can just plough into combat and get your points back by slaughtering elite units and war machine crews, or preferably the enemy wizard who's doing your head in. When the Wizard is dead, unleash the magical apocalypse. If you're low on Wounds and hiding away from the front line, again you unleash the magical apocalypse. Remember he's just as good at fighting as casting spells unlike most magic users.

Questions: Does the VL get inspiring presence? Apparently they can't Skitterleap "because it is a monster" - anyone know why monsters can't use that spell when they can use all the others?


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## IanC (Sep 3, 2010)

My only real problem with the VL is that he cant be the general, which would mean that in a 2000 point game you will have to be lead by a Chieftain. Which, IIRC, will mean a far lower leadership in his unit, than if you had a Warlord or Grey Seer. I ahvent got my Skaven book with me, so yeah.

But I do like his stats, and he has the same magic options as a Grey Seer, so....


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