# Most Competitive army?



## hacknslashgamer (Jan 28, 2009)

I know everybody has an opinion on the best army out there is there an army that wins consistantly more than most?
Mabey in separate categories 
like best 1500
or best for 2000
or best at 2500-3000


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I think it's far too early to tell. 8th has totally changed how armies play, so until we have a few major tournaments and things settle down a bit it's impossible to work out which army is "best".

My money is on any High Elf list with Teclis, I played against it the other day and didn't use my Dispel Scroll once. Everything he cast included a double. I had a level 4 and a level 2, and he shut them both down with ease, because he always had either the same number of dispel dice as I had power dice, or sometimes more. The only reason I didn't lose that one was because I got the -1 S and T to all units within 24" off on the turn his Sea Guard stepped into close range of 30 Repeater Crossbowmen, and his White Lions got charged by 20 Frenzied Corsairs.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

HE Teclis is going to be a very strong army, but I still havent seen a full artillery gunline for either the dwarves or empire... and I think that both will be incredibly powerful as well. We'll just have to wait and see


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

It's a little early to tell by point level, but here are the contenders, and why:

Skaven- huge number of models. Good at virtually everything. Their only weaknesses are the brutal randomness of some of their weapons, and the fact that they need to keep their ranks in close combat, and heroes/lords alive, in order to really shine. If they lose either, things will go downhill fast. Likewise, if they start running, they tend to keep running.

High Elves- Also good at virtually everything. They always go first, usually re-roll to hit, and their spearmen get a mind boggling number of attacks in close combat. Their only weaknesses is their relatively poor armor save, and the high cost per model, making them a very elite army.

Dark Elves- similar to high elves, only with more specialized units. Unfortunately, the changes to skirmishers were a bit hard on them.

Dwarves- a very large number of war machines, and very resilient infantry. They're still slow, but that no longer matters as much. Only weaknesses is that their lack of magic still hurts, and many of their better characters can now only be fielded in VERY large games.

Lizardmen- a very well balanced and talented army, with great troops, very talented spellcasters, and versatile support units. The changes to the rules, however, make the models of stegodons and 'engines' far more susceptible to template attacks, and skinks far less effective. 

Warriors of Chaos- excellent stats, effective spellcasters, and two of the best core choices in the game (marauders and chaos warriors) make this a very powerful army. Their only weaknesses is that their cavalry is no longer nearly as fearsome as it used to be, and they have virtually no shooting at all.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

I went up against a Dwarven Gunline backed by 2 Cannons in a 1k game with my HE. It was nasty closing in, but once I was in there wasn't much he could do there. My Spearmen still had some issues against the higher toughness, though. One really bad round of combat and a terrible Ld check later and 25 Spearmen turn tail and run...

It would have been a completely different game had I taken a Mage of some kind. Korhil was a poor choice, haha.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Daemons, if played right, can run through most anything. A bloodletter horde with herald of khorne (hatred, killing blow), supporting bloodletter blocks, with Tzeentch herald withs Lore of Life/loremaster to boost the toughness and protect the bloodletters just runs over everything out there. It is not fair. At 2500 points they can still run a Bloodthirster with tunderstomp and yet have four heralds. The build won a local tourney in Texas and I've seen it played three times now against tough armies and watched it just run over those armies (chaos knights, chaos marauder horder block, chaos warriors blown away in one turn). Fleshhounds MR(3), flamers (max skirmish and shooting), bloodletters, herald of tzeentch (wth master of sorcery for loremaster), daemonettes, fiends, and bloodcrushers all are as good as before or better in 8th edition. Just leave the plaguebearers at home and horror units are only okay for protecting a herald of tzeentch and casting cheap, one dice flickering fire spells. 

High Elves are still struggling against some tier 1 armies in environments where special characters cannot be played. They need to use eagles and RBTs, archmage with lore of life and swordmaster, lion or phoenix units along with seaguard and spear units. Archers are too weak and don't hit hard enough with shooting unless held back able to shoot over other units. The high points cost per model makes this army just a bit too small to compete even with the ACR from effective hatred (ASF + better initiative means re-rolls to hit) and the step up rule partially offsets the benefits of ASF given elf toughness and weaker AS. 

Dwarves are a lot better but just not quite there yet. 

Dark Elves are iffy at tier 1. RBTs are easier to kill. I play them and see weaknesses that they did not have before (witch elves and execs are limited to smaller flanking units at most) offset by a number of gains, especially the ability to run two hydras and two RBTs. All of the Dark Elf core got better with the ability to shoot in two ranks, RXB units can now swift reform and shoot in ranks, RHB corsairs with frenzy get dobule shots and short range stand and shoot in two ranks, and DE spears get another rank of attacks. With a cheap master for LD boost and magic items (guiding eye for large RXB block, ITP for spears, or ACR) these units are now much more effective. The hydra gets only one breath attack but with that attack in close combat and thunderstomp it can roll over a lot of units so effectively, especially with the terror check, that it is as or more valuable than before. DE armies can still hold up against some armies well ( enough magic and shooting to go up against Daemons ) but will struggle against others (certain builds of skaven and warriors). I'm finding a cauldron is almost a necessity now for killing blow, ward save and +1 attack but is slightly harder to protect. A a lvl 4 and a dreadlord Lord combo can be quite effective (although restricted in points at the lower points levels below 2500). The step up rule hurts the benefit elves had from charging and often striking first. TLOS really hurt the ability to hid a level 4 and keep her out of the unit (to avoid miscast consequences damaging units) and the change in the rules for mounted Pegs really hurt my Lvl 4 Sorc and the cost of a lord on a dragon is tough with one breath weapon attack per game, reduced terror tests, and inability to disrupt ranks. Ring of Hotek is less than half its prior value. 

Warriors are better but a lot of people are playing them wrong (wrong lores and wrong units). If played right, they can now hold up as well or better than before. Tzeentch Lore with MoT casters as the primary lore is the best for 8th edition. M. Horsemen with vanguard and throwing axes and flails can sometimes run down war machines and distract units. 

Lizardmen only is top tier assuming one runs a Slann with loremaster, chooses the right lore, and the +1PD per cast gets rolling. Skorx units are modestly better. Saurus warriors are modestly better. Now cannot effectively run two EOTG skink priests. Winds of magic make ability of Slann with skink priests to control magic reduced (must always use at least one pool dice per casting attempt) and failed attempts to cast can shut down the Slann (forcing more dice per casting attempt and more chances of a miscast). 

I know of a Vampire build that is actually very good in 8th edition but most of the VC builds just won't hold up. Lvl 2 and Lvl 1 vamps and casting single power dice and bound spells now longer works like it used to. VC needs to make fighting builds and plan for different magic (buy levels for casting higher cost spells and dispelling) to be competitive. Steadfast does not stop unstable, so the units still get killed off quickly when losing CR. VC core is weak for the points due to fear and undead. With supporting attacks, a unit of warriors or frenzied corsairs can roll up a large block of skeletons too easily.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

BTW, below 2200, all of the proposed tier 1 armies suffer except Skaven, due to the percentage limits. Skaven has cheap enough lords and heroes and units to scale down effectively. Dwarves may also benefit from lower points battles. 

Lizardmen will struggle with poorly equipped Slanns. High elf lord on dragon is out and its units are expensive. Dark Elves have some limited scalability but can at least get a decen lvl 4 sorc and hydra with decent core at or below 2000 points. Warriors can run okay at the lower points levels with lvl 4 Tzeentch sorc lords but will lack the numbers of units and natural synergies to be as effective.


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## Cheese meister (Jun 5, 2010)

i have been finding that my clan pestilence list is doing very well without a single loss to date but it isa centred around to massive units of 60 monks and furnaces


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

olderplayer said:


> Lizardmen will struggle with poorly equipped Slanns. High elf lord on dragon is out and its units are expensive. Dark Elves have some limited scalability but can at least get a decen lvl 4 sorc and hydra with decent core at or below 2000 points. Warriors can run okay at the lower points levels with lvl 4 Tzeentch sorc lords but will lack the numbers of units and natural synergies to be as effective.


I really can't imagine HE princes on dragons being good units in 8th... the rules for 'templates' hurt them far too much. When 1 cannon hit does an average of ~3W on the dragon and ~1.5W on the rider in a game where its basically impossible to hide the dragon behind anything or out of range (and no wrong guesses- just wrong dice) its just too risky in my eyes to run. 600+pts for a model you would expect to die in a little more then 2 cannon shots (without too much luck a dwarf/empire army could kill the dragon first turn, without it ever getting the chance to move).


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## Cheese meister (Jun 5, 2010)

i don't know that dragon mayy live if place carefully as it is placed last and a warmachine army will not have lots of units so if you set up last first turn march up close to said cannons as they have a min range of 12 not sure haven't read up on cannons yet as i don't use them then the cannon bounces so should be safe


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

hard to say but im liking orc and gobbos as an outside bet. solid magic defense from the banner that gives +ld. cheap units to abuse hoard and steadfast, cheap characters, improved stonethrowers.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

With chaos you simply put a warshrine infront of a chaos dragon, it stops cannonballs if it lives and it has a 4+ ward save. Sure it's over 100 points, but a dragon is a lot more. On top of that, cannons balls have some new restrictions, if they hit an obstacle they stop dead, if they hit any solid terrain they stop (i.e even if they can see your dragon over a temple or similar, the cannonball can't travel as it needs an unobstructed line to the dragon's base). All fences/obstacles now are destroyed and stopped by a cannonball, this gives you one turn of defence versus a single cannon and with smart placement potentially more turns of defence, after 1 turn you are close enough that cannon shots may hit their own troops, no cannon shots which risk friendly forces are allowed period, even if there's a CHANCE of this happening. This means dwarves can no longer fire over their own troops and risk hitting them to kill the big monster.

I've been thinking of ways to defend against cannons for awhile and am coming up with at least a few....

That said my money is on High Elves. I also lend some support to jigplums on orcs and gobbos. A unit of 80 orcs is relatively cheap and if you hit them with chopper and shield reasonably survivable with S4. Throw in gobbos with nets and fanatics and you have a really nasty combination......On top of that dirt cheap war machine means they can do reasonably well, especially with doom divers now....ouch


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Orcs and Goblins still suffer from animosity, which basically forces you to either concentrate on black orcs, or a single giant block led by a black orc boss. War machine builds are still very good, but without a canon, I can't help but feel you'll be wishing you chose Empire or Dwarves instead.

The information from Olderplayer on Daemons is interesting. I'll have to look into that. Chaos Daemons may be better than I originally assumed.

After thinking about it and looking over the forums, I have to place my money on Skaven being the #1 army to beat in 8th edition. If nothing else, they're certainly the most scalable of the top tier armies. It doesn't matter if it's a 1000 point game or 3000. The Skaven are always a potent threat.


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## the-graven (Apr 26, 2010)

I have to agree with older player that daemons are still good, i fought a block of 20 bloodletters with a herald of tzeentch with loremaster(life), serious that sucks, some flamers nearby adn seekers and flesh hounds for flanking, at 1000 points, plz kill me, luckily there was no herald of khorne in the unit, htat would have been just insane.
Daemons lost a bit of power, but some things in the new edition help them, they still are a hard army to face.

About skaven, what some people tend to forget when talking about weak points of skaven, they forget their troops are weak, they're cheap, but really weak, the only good thing about them is they have good movement and initiative, really they are weak, but still cheap.

O&G are a good army, the stone thrower is annoying, it killed a lot fo saurus, and they are cheap, i face a night goblin horde of 50 at 1000 points, that was just insane, it had nets and 2 fanatics, at 1000 points!!!, what do I have 15 saurus who survived the stone throwers rampage(really that stone thrower had a great day) :|


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Skaven - Cheap characters and cheap bodies. Plenty of template weapons and being able to take at least 1 cheap caster and power scrolling the dreaded 13th is almost too nasty to handle. I think their true power lies in being able to scale at any point level and having access to HPA's. I think they suffer against artillery armies though as a couple of stone throwers and cannons later, their HPA's and large blocks are going to be nearly non-existent. Granted, this will be the case with most armies as stone throwers and flamer templates are absolutely devastating.

High Elves - One word. Teclis. In tourneys which ban special characters I don't think High Elves are really too much to worry about. However, Teclis' ability to spam spells and almost guarantee IF on 4 dice is going to be too much for some armies to handle. Especially if your expecting to shut down the HE's magic phase with dispel dice. The ASF and reroll's to hit make HE's good in combat but due to cost, you won't see very large or very many units. A block of yours might lose a few models but you will almost always get your return strikes which the HE's just can't stand up to. IMO, Phoenix Guard seem to be the way to go with their 4+ Ward.

Dwarfs - With their resistance to magic, great artillery, and sturdy models, dwarfs have really become a top tier army. At one time they were hampered by their slow movement but with the new rules for charging and their pre-game marching banner/scouts, we're seeing dwarfs fly into our lines supported by an anvil and some artillery. As mentioned above, dwarfs have great anti-magic in that their runesmiths/runelords generate additional dispel dice, they can steal your power dice and add it to their dispel dice, and can field more than one 'dispel scroll.' The lack of magic doesn't really hurt the dwarfs (in fact, I have yet to have any remains in play spells last more than the turn I cast it) but may lead to a less interesting army.

Empire - Similar to dwarfs in that they can truly field a terrifying array of artillery backed up by solid blocks of halberdiers or swordsmen sporting hatred granting warrior priests. Similarly, they can spam cheap warrior priests granting them an additional dispel dice per each while giving their large blocks (not horde as its terrible) hatred. Additionally, many people have been saying the Steam Tank is not worth taking anymore. I would give it another thought, considering most empire armies can have upwards of 10+ dispel dice, you're really only looking at cannons at being a reliable way of hurting it. Against some armies with its T10 and 1+ armour save, they will have no easy way of hurting it without artillery and a neutered magic phase. Lastly, you may also see spammed Hochland Long Rifles as a way of destroying your magic phase as they can field enough of these to put down a couple of wizards by the end of turn 2.

Lizardmen - Slann are probably the best casters in the game atm moment other than Teclis. However, Slann are allowed in SC banned tournies. Being able to add an additional PD to each casting means that on a good roll, a Slann could cast an entire cheap lore (like life). Saurus warriors and cold blood lead to a very stable army that won't abandon you at the worst time. Stegadons are still a great unit now with TS and I would say that EoTG are still an excellent choice - if only for the 5+ ward with all the artillery we are seeing. Skinks are still awesome even with the change to skirmishing and we are now seeing the true power in chameleon skinks (with the great new rules for scouts). Salamanders are lizardmens artillery and I expect all armies will field at least 2 units of these as the new templates are deadly. All in all, you have a very solid and reliable army able to dish out the hurt. Lack of artillery hurts them though.


While I would say the below 2 are still great armies, I don't know if they're quite as good as the ones above:

Warriors of Chaos - They have some excellent choices in warriors, marauders, and hellcannons but overall I feel that they are just too pricey. With artillery being able to remove swaths of warriors, you're paying too much to just die. That being said, if they make it to you, look out.

Deamons of Chaos - Still have great core choices backed up by ability granting heralds. The changes to regen and being able to strike back hurt them similarly to HEs - however they don't have a Teclis.


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## Whizzwang (Dec 31, 2008)

Orcs + Goobers are IMMENSE in the new rules.

I've crushed everything I've played so far except a Dwarf gunline, but they've always been an issue.

We get an item that adds multiple power dice and 50 point channel wizards so we can out dice you in our magic phase

We get a banner that adds 3 dispel dice and we take one of your power dice so we can lock out YOUR magic phase.

We have +LD items and steadfast to hide behind so our entire army is LD 9 or 10 and stubborn

We don't take warmachines anymore, we take Shamans for Waaagh, a black or boss with no gear in our importnat units to get them across the table and we cast WAAAGH every turn thowing as many dice as possible miscasting until our shaman explodes but by then we're already on you ripping you apart

Skaven are good, but I've yet to be worried by them so far. However that could be down to my opponent. I'm playing a different skaven army next week so we'll see.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Whizzwang said:


> Orcs + Goobers are IMMENSE in the new rules.
> 
> I've crushed everything I've played so far except a Dwarf gunline, but they've always been an issue.
> 
> ...


I have yet to play and O&G army this edition yet. From your review though, they could be mean given their magic phase denial. I'm playing one this weekend so I'll post my thoughts then.


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## Whizzwang (Dec 31, 2008)

the thing with Greenskins is this. The good armies are those played by good generals. new people don't understand the intricacies of the O+G style. 

O+G armies have been the underdog for so long that it's almost ingrained in people that they're shit so they're always overlooked. We've had it tough, and we're not a forgiving army to play, far from it. you have to think fast and adapt when you play greenskins, you can and WILL fail animosity, even with the new composition rules animosity can hurt, I had my B.Orc warboss of death take out 6 black orcs turn 1 before either player had even touched a model. All that randomness coupled with player mistakes can cost you a game easily. I'd say O+G are definitiely an experienced players army. They're fun as hell for everyone, but to reach their potential you need to know what you're doing......unlike Daemons as any monkey can with them as proved by my fiancee who has never read the rulebok and has won 3 games with a Daemon army she borrowed against "average" players who should have won


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Crimzzen said:


> Warriors of Chaos - They have some excellent choices in warriors, marauders, and hellcannons but overall I feel that they are just too pricey. With artillery being able to remove swaths of warriors, you're paying too much to just die. That being said, if they make it to you, look out.


You'll never see Warriors in more than 3 ranks, so the effect of artillery is minimized. If you take Blasted Standard and mark of Tzeentch as well then you get a 4+ Ward against all shooting (and shields to give you a 3+ basic armour save). I'm not sure if that would be my setup in an all-comers list but if I knew what my opponent was fielding then I would go for it like a shot.


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## Cheese meister (Jun 5, 2010)

i used my clan pestilence list the other day against a high elf player at 2k i raped him silly he ended the game withe 300 vps and i had around 2200


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

How do Brettonnia rate with the new edition since ive been looking at making a Brettonia army because i think they are awesome, cavelry just seems so beautiful.

Also how do Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts and Beastman rate since they always seemed interesting armys to me


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Loli said:


> How do Brettonnia rate with the new edition since ive been looking at making a Brettonia army because i think they are awesome, cavelry just seems so beautiful.
> 
> Also how do Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts and Beastman rate since they always seemed interesting armys to me


Well Brets got hit pretty bad, I'd wait for a new Army Book if I were you if you're serious.

Tomb Kings are very interesting, especially with their new FAQ and good ol' Chariot units no longer being vulnerable to high Strength hits (nor any other Chariots for that matter, by the way). From what I've gathered from the fellow Heretics here its hard to tell just how strong they really are. 

Vampire Counts need to rethink their previously kickass strategies but they're still doing well from what I've heared. The new magic and Fear/Terror rules are a pain it seems.

Beastmen are a decent army, if you manage to get the hang of them you stand a very good chance at beating a top tier army. Hell, I almost started those guys.  My problem is that nobody can get a decent save except for Bestigors and non-caster Lords/Heroes but those guys can end up being tanks that could potentially handle smaller units all by themselves. I also have problems with spamming the same troops all over and that said troops become useful only if I take a specific magical item (some chalice thingee that screws up shooting beyond imagination), otherwise my lads will be shot to death. But I still love'em, I just don't play'em.


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## mechgumbi (Jun 24, 2008)

Whizzwang said:


> I had my B.Orc warboss of death take out 6 black orcs turn 1 before either player had even touched a model. All that randomness coupled with player mistakes can cost you a game easily.


I guess your first mistake was both rolling for animosity for a Black Orc unit...:wink:. I agree that O&G should be moving up the tiers some, and they are not a beginner army. I am still looking forward to my first 2k+ game with O&Gs so that I can include the large units of NGs, Orcs, and Arrer Boyz, backed by lots of Chukkas and Lobbas.

Would anyone try Wolf Riders with Shields & Light Armor as light cav?


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## Khorne Aggression (Jul 24, 2010)

Depends who you're against. Ordinarily I'd run Wolf Riders with just bows, maybe shields so they get a parry save in case they do get in close combat. If you think you're going up against a very shooty army then yeah I'd definitely go for it. Otherwise, you could probably get a few more NG for the same cost.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Sorry to bring this thread back from near death, but after watching the matches at Ard Boyz, I just want to emphasize something: 

Any army can be competitive, and far more so than in 40k.

In 40k there are a few armies that are almost impossible to win with in a competitive setting, unless you're a much better player than any of your opponents. From what I've seen, however, there are no races with this problem in Warhammer Fantasy. I've seen plenty of the Low tier armies played competitively, and the grand winner of the Ard Boyz, that dominated every single match up, was a Vampire Counts player.

Granted, some armies are easier to use than others, but none of them seem to have been crippled by the new edition.


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